Theological Opinions

[Spock]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

No, I definitely don't think it's right to kill billions!!!!

.

Actually, no one in history has ever killed billions.

[Radagast The Brown]

No, I definitely don't think it's right to kill billions!!!!

I was trying to get at something, but my brain is fuzzy now - I'll have to try later ...

Okay.. I didn't think you thought it was right.

Originally Posted by Spock

Actually, no one in history has ever killed billions.

We're talking about a future scenerio in which God will murder mercilessly billions of people 'cause they don't believe in Jesus.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Okay.. I didn't think you thought it was right.
We're talking about a future scenerio in which God will murder mercilessly billions of people 'cause they don't believe in Jesus.

Ahhhhhh, forgive my ignorance.

BTW, I don't believe that would happen.

Gods "chosen" were not undone as His chosen. This doesn't exclude followers of Jesus but it doesn't make them the 'new chosen' either, IMO.

[Lief Erikson]

Radagast, what do you think of the death penalty? If we had Adolf Hitler in our hands, would we be doing right in executing him or giving him a life prison sentence (which all destroys any real future for the person)?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Radagast, what do you think of the death penalty? If we had Adolf Hitler in our hands, would we be doing right in executing him or giving him a life prison sentence (which all destroys any real future for the person)?

I think, symbolically speaking, it would be right and just to execute him. (note that, anyway, he won't do anything in life any longer, the question is when he would die without doing anything else in his life not if)

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

(note that, anyway, he won't do anything in life any longer, the question is when he would die without doing anything else in his life not if)

Yet he would be doing nothing else in his life because we won't let him, not out of his own choice. If we let him go, he would probably try to hide and help build the Neo-Nazi movement. He's only incapable so far as we limit him.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I think, symbolically speaking, it would be right and just to execute him.

That's what the Last Judgment will be like. Execution that is right and just, and reward that is kind and gracious.

When God sent the Flood to wipe out the peoples of the Earth, he did so because "their every thought was turned to wickedness." In Revelation 9:20-21, the Lord describes judging the world for its wickedness, and he describes specific acts of wickedness that it commits and is judged for. In Revelation 11:18, the elders who worship God declare, "The time has come . . . for destroying those who destroy the earth." God judges sin. He judges wickedness, not intellectual opinion.

If all belief in God was was intellectual opinion, you would be completely correct that it would be very unjust for God to punish or reward people based on their faith or lack of faith. However, God's judgment is on works.

Here is what I think the really critically important point is: When one believes in God truly, Christ enters the person's heart and transforms the person so that his or her lifestyle is holy, pure and clean. He wipes evil out of his or her life. He changes us and makes us loving and good. We cannot be good without that divine intervention. God changes humans and makes them completely pure. When he has done this, these people are completely innocent. They no longer do any evil. They no longer commit any wrongdoing. The final stages of this transformation will be completed in heaven, but we already experience it here as well, a good deal. Therefore, when God judges people for unbelief, that unbelief is the root of wicked acts that those people must be judged for. All offenses come from rejecting God's way, and unbelief is the root cause of our rejecting God's way.

In the Final Judgment, God will judge people based on their actions. If they have done good in life, he will bless them. If they have done evil, he will punish them. Each person will receive precisely what his deeds deserve.

When people believe, God can change them. When they don't believe, he can't. Thus, unbelief is probably the key root of evil in our lives, and belief that allows God to change us and make us holy brings our salvation.

God won't judge anyone unjustly. He will judge us in accord with what our deeds deserve. Punishment will be in proportion to the degree of sin. However, humanity can be divided into two sections, those who believe and those who don't. Those who believe in Christ will be good, pure and completely spotlessly clean. Those who don't believe cannot be good, because they have rejected the only way of being cleansed of their wickedness. Instead, by the time the Last Day comes around, they will all have committed what the scripture calls, "the sin that leads to death." So belief and unbelief are central, because from belief or unbelief all of our actions spring. From belief in God spring all good actions, and from rejection of God spring all bad actions.

[Spock]

Have you taken a look at our criminal justice system of late? People who do horrible things, continue to do horrible things in and from prison. RTB's reasoning is sound.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

Have you taken a look at our criminal justice system of late? People who do horrible things, continue to do horrible things in and from prison. RTB's reasoning is sound.

That's a good reason for the death penalty. I'm not at all against the death penalty.

[Radagast The Brown]

Lief, we get back to the same thing - I don't think it's needed! Why kill billions when you don't have to? I haven't got any good explanation. I can't except it's the 'only way'.

And again - I find it mean and merciless to kill a person because of his belief. The same way I don't think a person who believe in Jesus and is still mean should survive such an occurance (and you might say there's no 'real' christian who's evil), I don't think an atheist that all bad he did in the world was to curse God should be punished. It's completely unfair and definitely not good. If someone did more good than evil and will still be murdered, it would be very unjust.

I don't understand how God can't make non-believers perfect. Can't! As in not possible to God! Sort of contradicting Christianity isn't it?

[inked]

Ah, but Radagast,

if God MADE people be perfect, there would be no free will, just automatons;

and,

you can't predicate of God nonsensicality. IF two mutually exclusive alternatives exist, they remain mutually exclusive even though it is God you speak of. Like, if God is all powerful, He can make a rock so big He can't lift it. Since God cannot make a rock so big He can't lift it, He can't be all powerful.

Nonsense postulated of God remains nonsense. Of course, that is based on the concept that to be made in the image of God is to participate in rationality. The underlying assumption is that God is rational.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Lief, we get back to the same thing - I don't think it's needed! Why kill billions when you don't have to? I haven't got any good explanation. I can't except it's the 'only way'.

Neither can I. I'm sure God could have created the universe and our lives in other ways. However, I also know that it is arrogant to say that this must be a bad way, for we do not have enough information available to us. Furthermore, there is plenty of good data available that strongly indicates the goodness of God, and that needs to be taken into account as well.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

And again - I find it mean and merciless to kill a person because of his belief. The same way I don't think a person who believe in Jesus and is still mean should survive such an occurance (and you might say there's no 'real' christian who's evil), I don't think an atheist that all bad he did in the world was to curse God should be punished. It's completely unfair and definitely not good.

This is what I spent my entire last post trying to respond to. It's more than just intellectual belief. When God transforms people, he makes them good. Thus belief leads to goodness of personality and action, and unbelief does not permit God to transform people. Thus, it leads to badness of personality and action. It's much more than just intellectual belief that we're talking about, and I agree with you that God would be wrong to judge people based upon their intellectual belief. It's people's actions that count, whether they do good or do evil. According to Christianity, whether they do good or evil depends on whether they believe or not.

My main point here is the belief we're talking about here is not mere intellectual belief, for when one believes in God, that person is transformed.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

If someone did more good than evil and will still be murdered, it would be very unjust.

Like RÃ*an was saying, you can't just arbitrarily draw the line there. In all the billions of people in the world, you would judge one person to hell for 2,000,000,000 sins, another for 200 and another for 2. There is no justice in that. The fact is that every sin people commit deserves judgment. I do think that God sometimes in his mercy overlooks sins, and when he transforms people to a new life so that they leave the old life behind them, he will no longer hold those sins against them.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I don't understand how God can't make non-believers perfect. Can't! As in not possible to God! Sort of contradicting Christianity isn't it?

He can't make non-believers perfect because they won't let him. As in, they say, "no, we won't let you in to change us." Well, sure, perhaps I'm making a mistake here. He can make them perfect, but to do so he would have to destroy their free will (I'm defining free will as freedom to act according to our own personalities, freedom to be who we are, rather than freedom from God's plan). Destroying their free will would be degrading them as creations. Sorry, but the Holy Spirit is too much of a gentleman to overwhelm your choice and make you be good when you don't want to be.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by inked

Ah, but Radagast,

if God MADE people be perfect, there would be no free will, just automatons;

I agree. But killing them doesn't make their will more free on the other hand.

Lief said God can't make non-believers perfect (and thus not kill them) because they don't believe in God. I disagree, and I don't think it has much to do with free will (in which Lief doesn't believe anyway).

you can't predicate of God nonsensicality. IF two mutually exclusive alternatives exist, they remain mutually exclusive even though it is God you speak of. Like, if God is all powerful, He can make a rock so big He can't lift it. Since God cannot make a rock so big He can't lift it, He can't be all powerful.

Frankly, I find it irrelevant, because I think it's unreasonable that God can create human beings but can't change them afterwards just because of their thoughts. It's not like my demand from God contradicts one of the basic principles.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Neither can I. I'm sure God could have created the universe and our lives in other ways. However, I also know that it is arrogant to say that this must be a bad way, for we do not have enough information available to us. Furthermore, there is plenty of good data available that strongly indicates the goodness of God, and that needs to be taken into account as well.

I'm just saying that there must be a better way. God is all powerful after all.

I don't tihnk God is good, if what you say is true. I've read your posts about why you think God is good and it can also be explained by a neutral God, or even a bad God. But I think it would be better if we leave that be..

This is what I spent my entire last post trying to respond to. It's more than just intellectual belief. When God transforms people, he makes them good. Thus belief leads to goodness of personality and action, and unbelief does not permit God to transform people. Thus, it leads to badness of personality and action.

Lief, are you saying there can't be a good person who doesn't believe in God?

Like RÃ*an was saying, you can't just arbitrarily draw the line there. In all the billions of people in the world, you would judge one person to hell for 2,000,000,000 sins, another for 200 and another for 2. There is no justice in that. The fact is that every sin people commit deserves judgment. I do think that God sometimes in his mercy overlooks sins, and when he transforms people to a new life so that they leave the old life behind them, he will no longer hold those sins against them.

I believe there is no justice in ignoring all good one does, and judging by looking only on the bad things. That's what you suggest God does, if I understand correctly. I do think it's fair to be judges by 2 sins, because clearly you've done more sins than 2, you've simply done more bad than good by 2 sins. If God is merciful, he might forgive the person still, say, if he promises he got better and will do no evil in the future.

He can't make non-believers perfect because they won't let him. As in, they say, "no, we won't let you in to change us." Well, sure, perhaps I'm making a mistake here. He can make them perfect, but to do so he would have to destroy their free will (I'm defining free will as freedom to act according to our own personalities, freedom to be who we are, rather than freedom from God's plan). Destroying their free will would be degrading them as creations. Sorry, but the Holy Spirit is too much of a gentleman to overwhelm your choice and make you be good when you don't want to be.

But Lief, he created this 'free will'. He knew what will happen. To create a person whom you know will surely die because his personality doesn't let him believe in God... hmmm. But God's good.

[inked]

RtB,

How many did God call before Abram answered "yes"?

Any? Then they were free to refuse and did.

None? Then Abram answered yes on the first go (or was it the second or third, etc.).

Abram however was not perfected in his behaviour and suffered consequences. Likewise, Moses.

Human response is free to respond to God or not, apoint about which I and Lief disagree. But our disagreement is rather like that of the prophets who said of God that all Israeli responses were "caused by God" in the sense of "used by God". Israel could have responded affirmatively to God when He called for repentance, just like Abram and Moses responded affirmatively.

Which brings us to Isaac as sacrifice. Did he submit voluntarily?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by inked

RtB,

How many did God call before Abram answered "yes"?

Any? Then they were free to refuse and did.

None? Then Abram answered yes on the first go (or was it the second or third, etc.).

Abram however was not perfected in his behaviour and suffered consequences. Likewise, Moses.

Human response is free to respond to God or not, apoint about which I and Lief disagree. But our disagreement is rather like that of the prophets who said of God that all Israeli responses were "caused by God" in the sense of "used by God". Israel could have responded affirmatively to God when He called for repentance, just like Abram and Moses responded affirmatively.

Which brings us to Isaac as sacrifice. Did he submit voluntarily?

But inked - If God created us, and made us who we are, we are inclined to do whatever God planned us to do in the world. The choices one makes depend on who he is, or in other words - how God "made" him.

Since nobody's perfect, IMO, there's no point in judging someone to go to hell because he killed an ant when he was 7. Moses and Abraham probably went to heaven. (but then again they didn't believe in heaven)

And btw, I think Abraham is a bad person himself, for accepting to sacrifice his son just to prove his love and faith to God.

[Rían]

That's indeed a troubling story at first glance, Rad, but I think there's more to it than a surface reading will give.

For one thing, remember his times - sacrifice, even sacrifice of your children, was not an uncommon thing. Secondly, and this is extremely important to me, the Bible states that Abraham KNEW that God could raise Isaac from the dead. So the way I look at it, after multiple readings of that story and surrounding stories and background info and lots of thought, is that Abraham is getting to know this God who has called to him personally, and is different from the gods of his fathers and the gods of the people around him. Then one day, this God acts like those other gods in the area and calls for a child sacrifice. Abraham, KNOWING in his heart that this God is different and can raise Isaac up again, (because even getting Isaac in the FIRST place was a miracle, given the ages of he and his wife, and that Sarah was WAAAAY past child-bearing years) decides to obey, although I imagine with a sadness that this God has this aspect in him like the other gods. Then right before the blow falls, this God stops him! And what's more, this God provides the sacrifice himself! (a beautiful "picture" of how God will provide His Son Jesus himself for the sin sacrifice required of us). And then this God goes even further and makes the covenant with Abraham, and contrary to all custom, this God passes through the slain animal Himself, and Abraham doesn't (normally both sides would pass thorough, meaning "let this happen to me if I don't keep my side") - meaning that God takes ALL the responsibility of the covenant onto Himself.

Such depth of teaching could never had taken place if God had not called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. And note that God Himself stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

But inked - If God created us, and made us who we are, we are inclined to do whatever God planned us to do in the world. The choices one makes depend on who he is, or in other words - how God "made" him.

We decide differently from what God intends sometimes (or a lot of the time), because God created us with free will.
God is good, so man ultimately wants good, though he is inclined to do bad becuase of Adam's sin and because he thinks that thing will bring good. If we did'nt have free will, things would be very very different.
(note: if God was bad, it would be "good" to us, and our good now would be "bad" "there".)

Since nobody's perfect, IMO, there's no point in judging someone to go to hell because he killed an ant when he was 7. Moses and Abraham probably went to heaven. (but then again they didn't believe in heaven)

No, they didn't. Though when Christ died on the cross, he is supposed to have went down into Hades and freed the Great Fathers of the old testament.

And btw, I think Abraham is a bad person himself, for accepting to sacrifice his son just to prove his love and faith to God.

No! not to prove to himself...on a command from God.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

That's indeed a troubling story at first glance, Rad, but I think there's more to it than a surface reading will give.

For one thing, remember his times - sacrifice, even sacrifice of your children, was not an uncommon thing. Secondly, and this is extremely important to me, the Bible states that Abraham KNEW that God could raise Isaac from the dead. So the way I look at it, after multiple readings of that story and surrounding stories and background info and lots of thought, is that Abraham is getting to know this God who has called to him personally, and is different from the gods of his fathers and the gods of the people around him. Then one day, this God acts like those other gods in the area and calls for a child sacrifice. Abraham, KNOWING in his heart that this God is different and can raise Isaac up again, (because even getting Isaac in the FIRST place was a miracle, given the ages of he and his wife, and that Sarah was WAAAAY past child-bearing years) decides to obey, although I imagine with a sadness that this God has this aspect in him like the other gods. Then right before the blow falls, this God stops him! And what's more, this God provides the sacrifice himself! (a beautiful "picture" of how God will provide His Son Jesus himself for the sin sacrifice required of us). And then this God goes even further and makes the covenant with Abraham, and contrary to all custom, this God passes through the slain animal Himself, and Abraham doesn't (normally both sides would pass thorough, meaning "let this happen to me if I don't keep my side") - meaning that God takes ALL the responsibility of the covenant onto Himself.

Such depth of teaching could never had taken place if God had not called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. And note that God Himself stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac.

If God told him Isaac will be ressurected, where's the test? Ah, then it was a test on whether Abraham trusts God or not? I don't think he knew, but...

We decide differently from what God intends sometimes (or a lot of the time), because God created us with free will.
God is good, so man ultimately wants good, though he is inclined to do bad becuase of Adam's sin and because he thinks that thing will bring good. If we did'nt have free will, things would be very very different.

If we agree that God knows everything, and also that God created mankind and its personality, you must agree then that God knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit.

(note: if God was bad, it would be "good" to us, and our good now would be "bad" "there".)

How do you know? Even if God is bad - does it mean we have to be like God?

No, they didn't. Though when Christ died on the cross, he is supposed to have went down into Hades and freed the Great Fathers of the old testament.

Then no one before Jesus went to heaven? It was empty?

No! not to prove to himself...on a command from God.

It doesn't make it more acceptable.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Then no one before Jesus went to heaven? It was empty?

Actually I believe Moses and Elijah were seen "ascending to heaven in chariots"

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

If God told him Isaac will be ressurected, where's the test? Ah, then it was a test on whether Abraham trusts God or not? I don't think he knew, but...

If we agree that God knows everything, and also that God created mankind and its personality, you must agree then that God knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit.

How do you know? Even if God is bad - does it mean we have to be like God?

Then no one before Jesus went to heaven? It was empty?

It doesn't make it more acceptable.

The Adam and Eve question is hard for me to answer offhand...I have read things about it. In fact, some suggestions go so far as to suggest that the Adam and Eve story is analogy for something that happened on a larger scale, involving more people than two. But the story has the same results: man made a choice to fall.

Elijah and Moses did. But otherwise...no, at least the bible doesnt mention any other names besides those two.

[inked]

IF Abraham knew he'd be resurrected?????!!!!!

What about Isaac?
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At best Isaac and Abraham would have had the type of faith exemplified by Aslan in his self offering to replace Edmund. (Rather like another famous Jewish teacher!)