Theology III

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

No, that's not it. It's exactly what I said; after seeing so many people on Entmoot posting so many studies that flagrantly contradict one another, I have very little trust in studies.

But Gwai, it doesn't seem to bother you as much that religious folk differ on various doctrinal points. You don't take that as evidence that God doesn't exist.

It's a distrust of science per se that exists among many religious believers.

And really, I get tired of 'debate' that takes all its cues from nonsense like this : http://www.dare2share.org/devotions/...the-zoo-to-you

The idea is, Lie, and keep it up...you can shout people down.

Real discussion, and all science, depends on a clear pattern to evaluate things. Sometimes people do a much smaller question than the one that hits a newspaper. But science makes progress.

I think good religion makes progress, too.

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

If a God, like the Christian God, wants to prove his existence for all to see (about time?), he should move Mount Everest to the Sahara Desert or cure AIDS. That science can not explain. Why not keep it simple for all to see?

so what your saying is that God should cure AIDS to prove Himself? Why when aids is usally transfered when people have sex with a lot of people and God says to wait til marriage and to have sex with the one you marry. So He should fix our mistakes so that we don't have to face our actoins? (im pointing this to america mostly...not sure how aids in aferica works unless they are having multipul partners also)

[Azrael]

hmmm interesting...as I said I have never thought about this...but to me if someone from God were to came "and" show them self i'd think it would be an angel since they are the messengers...but I guess this is a possibility that saints could come too.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

But Gwai, it doesn't seem to bother you as much that religious folk differ on various doctrinal points. You don't take that as evidence that God doesn't exist.

That doesn't really make much sense, siscoz. Studies are supposed to be some sort of proof for a given point. There are numerous studies which support points contradictory to the points of other studies. Obviously, if the two points are contradictory, they can't both be right. I don't take somebody holding a doctrinal point as proof of its veracity, but the study is, theoretically, supposed to prove or support the point. There is just no relation between people believing different things calling God's existence into question, and contradictory studies calling the sanity (etymologically speaking) of the study method into question.

I think good religion makes progress, too.

But bad religion stagnates and ossifies?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Azrael

hmmm interesting...as I said I have never thought about this...but to me if someone from God were to came "and" show them self i'd think it would be an angel since they are the messengers...but I guess this is a possibility that saints could come too.

I certainly hope it's a possibility, or else who was that at the Transfiguration?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Azrael

so what your saying is that God should cure AIDS to prove Himself? Why when aids is usally transfered when people have sex with a lot of people and God says to wait til marriage and to have sex with the one you marry. So He should fix our mistakes so that we don't have to face our actoins? (im pointing this to america mostly...not sure how aids in aferica works unless they are having multipul partners also)

You have no idea what HIV/AIDS is do you?

Indeed I have to add that this type of religious argueing is the Art of Deviating. Sometimes it seems perfectly okay to speak of God's will on Earth, and how he helps us out when we really are the cause of our own troubles. Other times it is more convenient to speak of God as non-interacting, not solving the troubles we create for ourselves. So which is it?
This is a problem for religion. It has the Bible, and it has the Ten Commandments, yet when confronted with challenging realities, everything becomes fluid, and everything is either in our hands or in the hands of God. Completely unreliable and utterly irresponsible.

Give me our man-made laws and our rights and our ethics any day over any of the above.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Azrael

so what your saying is that God should cure AIDS to prove Himself? Why when aids is usally transfered when people have sex with a lot of people and God says to wait til marriage and to have sex with the one you marry. So He should fix our mistakes so that we don't have to face our actoins? (im pointing this to america mostly...not sure how aids in aferica works unless they are having multipul partners also)

Or, then, sometimes you get bad blood in a transfer, or are born with it, because your parent had it...but Oh well, at least you're just collateral damage in God's campaign against promiscuity and homosexuals (probably Jews, too). You can comfort the HIV+ children with the thought that AIDS is wiping out bad people, mostly.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Azrael

so what your saying is that God should cure AIDS to prove Himself? Why when aids is usally transfered when people have sex with a lot of people and God says to wait til marriage and to have sex with the one you marry. So He should fix our mistakes so that we don't have to face our actoins? (im pointing this to america mostly...not sure how aids in aferica works unless they are having multipul partners also)

No, Az, you really need to understand this.

This is important.

the HIV virus is transmitted through the exchange of body fluids. While this may happen during unprotected sex, the numbers of partners is not the determining factor, only the presence of the virus is. It is, worldwide, more and more an illness transmitted to children from their HIV positive mothers, and in the US is also commonly transmitted through exchange of blood associated with drug use.

I repeat. NEITHER THE NUMBER OF PARTNERS NOR THEIR RELATIVE GENDERS IS THE DETERMINING FACTOR FOR AIDS TRANSMISSION EVEN WHEN SEXUAL ACTIVITY IS THE WAY IT IS PASSED. /lecture

[Gwaimir Windgem]

*nods*

What she said.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

If a God, like the Christian God, wants to prove his existence for all to see (about time?), he should move Mount Everest to the Sahara Desert or cure AIDS. That science can not explain. Why not keep it simple for all to see?

You're worse than Doubting Thomas. He heard the testimony of ten close friends that Jesus was resurrected, but only believed when Jesus appeared to him Himself. You've got not ten testimonies but a million testimonies, and an apparition that you've seen yourself through photos (though, granted, not so at all as clearly as the eyewitnesses could see it, because of the light/dark contrast), which went on not for forty days but was documented as lasting over a year. And instead of falling over in wonder at the glory of God that opened heaven and came down to the international press, you're demanding more.

God does reach out to each person where he or she is, in life. But as I said earlier, what was originally bound by unbelief must be released by belief. God gives a tremendous stack of evidences for those unbelievers who need more, but ultimately we must believe. That unmakes the original sin Adam and Eve committed by choosing not to believe God when he told them they'd die if they disobeyed him.

Gwaimir is right. If Zeitoun isn't enough for you, you can look at the Medjugorje miracles or others. History is full of such wonders, where God opened history and did it for all to see. Zeitoun is the kind of supernatural episode you'd find in the Bible, except bigger than most of those accounts. Usually those signs happened before thousands of people, not millions.

You can always demand a bigger and BIGGER and BIGGER sign for God to prove Himself. What you really need to do, though, is just get down on your knees and pray that God reveals his truth to you personally, in such a way that it is clear to you that it is Him. Ask him to reveal Himself, if He exists, in a way that reaches your reason fully, and your heart, answering all you need answered.

Originally Posted by Azrael

hmmm interesting...as I said I have never thought about this...but to me if someone from God were to came "and" show them self i'd think it would be an angel since they are the messengers...but I guess this is a possibility that saints could come too.

The thing is you come from a Protestant non-denominational tradition, so this kind of thing sounds odd to you. Nothing you've been taught. But saints have been appearing to Catholics for 2,000 years. It's a well-accepted part of their Tradition, since the very beginning of the Church. The first reported such incident in Christian history comes just a century or two after Jesus. The Jews were reporting these kinds of experiences hundreds of years before that, though.

[Azrael]

By God's standard no one is a good person...If you can name one commandment you have not broken I believe you may be the first...I've broken everyone. OOO i know a good one people use "thou shall not murder" have you killed someone? I hope not. Jesus said that if you hate another you have broke the spirit of that command and are subject to judgment. I have thought a lot and studied on that for a while and i think i have figured it out. The reason hating someone in your heart is the same as killing (and i don;t mean disliking i mean your straggling them in your head hate) is because God can see our hearts and if he sees you want to kill someone weather you will or never will you are still wishing them dead. Now through a christain stand point say i hate someone so much and i wish them dead...im not going to share the word of God to them because i don't care if they go to Hell. I hope that makes since.

Yes i get what your saying about people being born with AIDS/HIV whose to say God woulnd't help them then? im talking about AIDS in general. As for being born with it...didn't the parent have to have it too...where did they get it....as for the blood transfer wonder where the person who was giving the blood got it? What im saying is sometimes it may not be the person who gets it fault but it always will link back to sex with more then one partner. God can choose to help someone or not its whatever furthers His plan. Coffee (i still love that name hehe) your saying that im contradicting myself a lot (at least i think you are) but i am merely repeating God's word and i have yet once to contradict myself and if I ever do on here i bet it will be because I strained off into my own thoughts then God's word. (i do that sometimes when im tired hehe) and with that im getting off pizzas here! We have straied from my main point so meny times so im going to throw it back to my point.

Jesus is God and the only way to Heaven is through Him...sorry if you still want to prove that off but its still going to be true.

God created us to be with Him.
Our sins separate us from God.
Sins cannot be removed by good deeds.
Paying for our sins, Jesus died and rose again!
Everyone who trusts in Him will have eternal life.
Life that is eternal means we will be with Him forever!

(Greg Stair, Dare 2 Share)

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You're worse than Doubting Thomas. He heard the testimony of ten close friends that Jesus was resurrected, but only believed when Jesus appeared to him Himself. You've got not ten testimonies but a million testimonies, and an apparition that you've seen yourself through photos (though, granted, not so at all as clearly as the eyewitnesses could see it, because of the light/dark contrast), which went on not for forty days but was documented as lasting over a year. And instead of falling over in wonder at the glory of God that opened heaven and came down to the international press, you're demanding more.

God does reach out to each person where he or she is, in life. But as I said earlier, what was originally bound by unbelief must be released by belief. God gives a tremendous stack of evidences for those unbelievers who need more, but ultimately we must believe. That unmakes the original sin Adam and Eve committed by choosing not to believe God when he told them they'd die if they disobeyed him.

Gwaimir is right. If Zeitoun isn't enough for you, you can look at the Medjugorje miracles or others. History is full of such wonders, where God opened history and did it for all to see. Zeitoun is the kind of supernatural episode you'd find in the Bible, except bigger than most of those accounts. Usually those signs happened before thousands of people, not millions.

You can always demand a bigger and BIGGER and BIGGER sign for God to prove Himself. What you really need to do, though, is just get down on your knees and pray that God reveals his truth to you personally, in such a way that it is clear to you that it is Him. Ask him to reveal Himself, if He exists, in a way that reaches your reason fully, and your heart, answering all you need answered.

The thing is you come from a Protestant non-denominational tradition, so this kind of thing sounds odd to you. Nothing you've been taught. But saints have been appearing to Catholics for 2,000 years. It's a well-accepted part of their Tradition, since the very beginning of the Church. The first reported such incident in Christian history comes just a century or two after Jesus. The Jews were reporting these kinds of experiences hundreds of years before that, though.

Hehe Lief.. it's just so very very.. unpersuasive. Too many words, no substance. Big words won't help an argument, only logic and credibility.

F.ex. you speak to me of these one million testimonies. You expect me to believe that one million inhabitants of Cairo have given testimony on this? You're misunderstanding the sources you're reading.

There was luminescence around the said church in Cairo, it happened over a period of three years, it is neatly explained in a corresponding theory on tectonic disturbances, it happened in a city of millions and there are a few photos that show light, more light and shapes and sizes you'd expect on top of a church

For every post you write on this happening you seem to inflate its importance more and more. Forgive me for not finding this very convincing.

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The thing is you come from a Protestant non-denominational tradition, so this kind of thing sounds odd to you. Nothing you've been taught. But saints have been appearing to Catholics for 2,000 years. It's a well-accepted part of their Tradition, since the very beginning of the Church. The first reported such incident in Christian history comes just a century or two after Jesus. The Jews were reporting these kinds of experiences hundreds of years before that, though.

ok im going to be shot for this but im going to say it. The reason I do not think mary, john, paul or someone like that will show up is because honestly they have no point to show up. The reason mases and elijah showed up is because they were fulfillments they talked of prophecy of Jesus! (yeppy!!!!) tho paul and john and them were awesome missionaries they were not prophets that spoke of Jesus's coming. The thing that gets me about Mary is everyone says she was the mother of Jesus. Not true even tho he was born from her He was not apart of her just a way for Jesus to fulfill a prophesy. Thats not saying she wasn't important but to say shes the mother of God and a goddess herself is breaking the 1st commandment "thou shall not put any God before me." Catholics have this thing called "praying to mary" why? Shes just a discentdent of David nothing more. The prophet said Jesus would be born to a virgin who was in the line of David. That does not make Mary a Goddess she was just a lady who fulfiled that and had our Savoir through the holy spirit. Sorry if you want to kill me now

pizza time!!!!! da da dadada

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Gwaimir is right. If Zeitoun isn't enough for you, you can look at the Medjugorje miracles or others.

Well, technically, I said steer clear of Medjugorje, not gravitate towards Medjugorje.

History is full of such wonders, where God opened history and did it for all to see. Zeitoun is the kind of supernatural episode you'd find in the Bible, except bigger than most of those accounts. Usually those signs happened before thousands of people, not millions.

You can always demand a bigger and BIGGER and BIGGER sign for God to prove Himself. What you really need to do, though, is just get down on your knees and pray that God reveals his truth to you personally, in such a way that it is clear to you that it is Him. Ask him to reveal Himself, if He exists, in a way that reaches your reason fully, and your heart, answering all you need answered.

The thing is you come from a Protestant non-denominational tradition, so this kind of thing sounds odd to you. Nothing you've been taught. But saints have been appearing to Catholics for 2,000 years. It's a well-accepted part of their Tradition, since the very beginning of the Church. The first reported such incident in Christian history comes just a century or two after Jesus. The Jews were reporting these kinds of experiences hundreds of years before that, though.[/QUOTE]

There was luminescence around the said church in Cairo, it happened over a period of three years, it is neatly explained in a corresponding theory on tectonic disturbances, it happened in a city of millions and there are a few photos that show light, more light and shapes and sizes you'd expect on top of a church

Not a Coptic church. They condemn the use of statues.

Originally Posted by Azrael

ok im going to be shot for this but im going to say it.

Let's just save the time. *BAM* There.

The reason I do not think mary, john, paul or someone like that will show up is because honestly they have no point to show up.

Blessed art thou, who art privy to the councils of the Apostles!

The reason mases and elijah showed up is because they were fulfillments they talked of prophecy of Jesus!

Did Elijah? I don't remember him referring to Christ. But anyway, Christ makes it quite clear that they are not fulfilling the prophecy:

9Coming down the mountain, Jesus swore them to secrecy. "Don't breathe a word of what you've seen. After the Son of Man is raised from the dead, you are free to talk."

10The disciples, meanwhile, were asking questions. "Why do the religion scholars say that Elijah has to come first?"

11 -13Jesus answered, "Elijah does come and get everything ready. I'm telling you, Elijah has already come but they didn't know him when they saw him. They treated him like dirt, the same way they are about to treat the Son of Man." That's when the disciples realized that all along he had been talking about John the Baptizer.

John Baptist was a fulfillment of the prophecy of Elijah's return, not the transfiguration.

(yeppy!!!!) tho paul and john and them were awesome missionaries they were not prophets that spoke of Jesus's coming.

Well, that certainly proves it! I suppose the archangel Michael is probably standing at the gates of Heaven: "Can I see your Prophetic Registration? I'm sorry, if you're not a registered Prophet, you can't leave."

The thing that gets me about Mary is everyone says she was the mother of Jesus. Not true even tho he was born from her He was not apart of her just a way for Jesus to fulfill a prophesy.

If you deny that Mary was the mother of Christ, you deny that He was human; she is the source whence He derived His humanity. What, was she nothing more than an incubator, an oven for God to put his little bun in, and then toss out once it's golden-brown?

Thats not saying she wasn't important but to say shes the mother of God and a goddess herself is breaking the 1st commandment "thou shall not put any God before me."

Well, certainly to call her a goddess would be idolatrous. Good thing Catholics don't do that.

Catholics have this thing called "praying to mary" why? Shes just a discentdent of David nothing more.

She was a discentdent of David, certainly, but "nothing more" is clearly false. Elizabeth calls her "the mother of my Lord", and shows great deference to her in the Gospels.

That does not make Mary a Goddess

Oh, well SPOTTED, old chap!

[Lief Erikson]

I'm tired of explaining this to you, Coffeehouse. You haven't responded to any of the points of my previous post. All you did is restate what you said earlier, with a little mockery of my tone of voice thrown in. Here's the only argument you made that's new and not yet refuted:

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

shapes and sizes you'd expect on top of a church

The apparitions appeared and disappeared again. Ergo, not a mistake about some normal statues on the building. Plus, you're ignoring the fact that it often hovered above the building and that it walked around at other times. Plus, you're not paying attention to the shining doves and angels that flew in the sky overhead. Or the stars. Or the smoke (incense from underground ) . . . or anything really.

Go ahead and keep doing what you're doing, if you want. I wish you'd stop pretending to be using reason, though. Nothing you've said is anything beyond bias.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

F.ex. you speak to me of these one million testimonies. You expect me to believe that one million inhabitants of Cairo have given testimony on this? You're misunderstanding the sources you're reading.

I'm sorry I didn't make my meaning as clear as I should have. There were at least one million witnesses. There are vast numbers of testimonies from that million, and they have been cross-checked against one another to see if they report the same things. They do.

I have read some of the testimonies. They say what I said they said.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The apparitions appeared and disappeared again. Ergo, not a mistake about some normal statues on the building. Plus, you're ignoring the fact that it often hovered above the building and that it walked around at other times. Plus, you're not paying attention to the shining doves and angels that flew in the sky overhead. Or the stars. Or the smoke (incense from underground ) . . . or anything really.

Also, as I noted, you would most certainly NOT see a statue on a Coptic Orthodox Church, as they reject the use of statues. Icons are okay, but you wouldn't see one on top of a church.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Azrael

ok im going to be shot for this but im going to say it.

Originally Posted by Azrael

The reason I do not think mary, john, paul or someone like that will show up is because honestly they have no point to show up. The reason mases and elijah showed up is because they were fulfillments they talked of prophecy of Jesus! (yeppy!!!!)

How do you know they'd have no reasons for showing up at any other time? Or that the Virgin Mary might have no reason for showing up?

Originally Posted by Azrael

tho paul and john and them were awesome missionaries they were not prophets that spoke of Jesus's coming.

Doesn't mean they wouldn't have any reason to say anything else .

Originally Posted by Azrael

The thing that gets me about Mary is everyone says she was the mother of Jesus. Not true even tho he was born from her He was not apart of her just a way for Jesus to fulfill a prophesy. Thats not saying she wasn't important but to say shes the mother of God

Well, Jesus was her son, and He's God, so she was the mother of God.

I agree with Gwaimir's response here too, that she truly did give birth to Jesus, he truly did come from her flesh. God didn't just pop Him through her like some odd kind of metro stop .

Originally Posted by Azrael

and a goddess herself is breaking the 1st commandment "thou shall not put any God before me."

Agreed. Catholics don't think she's a goddess.

Originally Posted by Azrael

Catholics have this thing called "praying to mary" why?

We pray to saints the same way we'd talk to an angel. If an angel showed up in front of you, and you were filled with a feeling of peace and the presence of God, wouldn't you feel comfortable with talking to him? Or would you stand there with your mouth sealed? Talking to spirits from God is not wrong. That's all that Christians do who pray to Mary. Prayer isn't the same thing as worship. It's just speaking to a spirit. If you're speaking to God, you might include worship in your prayer, though.

Praying to saints usually asks them to pray for you. That's just like asking a saint on Earth to pray for you. You might ask your youth pastor to pray for you, for example. Asking a saint in heaven to pray for you isn't that much different, except that they can see God and are purified.

Originally Posted by Azrael

Shes just a discentdent of David nothing more. The prophet said Jesus would be born to a virgin who was in the line of David. That does not make Mary a Goddess she was just a lady who fulfiled that and had our Savoir through the holy spirit. Sorry if you want to kill me now

She isn't a Goddess, we agree. She is the Mother of the Church, though, according to the Gospel of John. When Jesus said to John, "This is your mother," of Mary, even though she wasn't his biological mother, He made her Mother of the Church.

Originally Posted by Azrael

pizza time!!!!! da da dadada

Have fun . Yum yum.

EDIT: Time for me to eat too . . . chicken, noodles and tomato sauce. Very nice .

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Also, as I noted, you would most certainly NOT see a statue on a Coptic Orthodox Church, as they reject the use of statues. Icons are okay, but you wouldn't see one on top of a church.

Oh. I didn't know that.

[Azrael]

ok I just had a talk with my youth pastor, chap(leif can i call you chap?) and he told me what I had wrong. Mary is Jesus's mother (my bad im new at this stuff remember) but heres my question. Chap do you believe Mary was just who God choose to be Jesus's mother or do you believe she has has divineness about her? like do you believe she was more then just human?

sorry for being wrong guys like I said im still new at this and some of it is over my head hehe)

[Azrael]

there is one thing chap i'd like to say about you talking to coffee....stay calm and loving you seem to be getting mad and one thing i know for sure is we are suppose to be as loving as doves. all right high five! *holds up hand*