12-02-2006, 05:41 PM | #961 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-02-2006, 06:58 PM | #962 | |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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WOOOOOO Massachusetts! |
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12-02-2006, 07:05 PM | #963 | |
Word Santa Claus
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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12-02-2006, 07:09 PM | #964 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I can certainly sympathise; I'm prone to do that at times, meself.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-02-2006, 07:18 PM | #965 | |
Elven Warrior
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In the Good News Department
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l Because of their tragic history of apartheid, there is a strong opposition to all forms of discrimination. Well done! |
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12-02-2006, 08:43 PM | #966 | |
Elf Lord
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I guess I'll respond to it, anyway, sentence by sentence. 1) Agreed that religions can be authoritarian, but it doesn't follow that the people have to be. People obey God as king, and so the religion is authoritarian. However, the religious people can still have democratic principles with regard to Earthly government. 2) God can be seen, heard and questioned. Not everyone gets a chance to see God before dying, but there are some who do. And I've questioned him and gotten answers back many times, so I know that that's possible. 3) Government must be free, I agree. I don't fully agree about it having to be secular. If it were to be fully secular, no religious person would be allowed to vote, for they vote based on what they think is right, and often what they think is right stems from the principles they have because of their religion or lack of religion. So I think that there has to be a balance. I think that right now there is a balance between church and state in the government, because sometimes religious people purposely elect other religious people like them, and that's perfectly fine. I'm not sure what I think of the way the balance overall is currently constructed, as I don't really know enough about it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-03-2006, 01:19 AM | #967 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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You can see this even more clearly in the Islamic countries. They are a perfect example of what happens when belief systems trump democracy. If, hypothetically, every christian on the planet thought gay marriage was okay, it would still be wrong. Quote:
We don't argue the laws that are in scripture and make real world sense (i.e. murder). We do argue the ones that seem to only have a scriptual basis. The idea that scripture says men shall not marry men, or women women, is not enough. In fact, it shouldn't even enter into the equation. In our government we require earthly reasons for such a prohabition.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-03-2006, 02:53 AM | #968 | ||
Elf Lord
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On one very low level, religion is one more element of education. It involves gaining additional knowledge, and using that knowledge to make choices. Quote:
So there has to be a strong element of morality involved in law. Where, then, is that morality that forms the premise of law going to come from? I think it'll come from people's views about morality, whatever they may be, and that will certainly involve a religious influence. And so it should. A sidenote: Remember that according to our Declaration of Independence, we were "Endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights," and that among these are "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." They try to put a secular reasoning behind the founding values of this country, and they admitted that rights came from a Creator. Rights are what the law provides and protects. Thus morality is enshrined in the very core documents that found this country.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-03-2006 at 02:59 AM. |
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12-03-2006, 08:08 PM | #969 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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Oh this country was totally founded on religion. Most of the pilgrims left Europe to avoid religious persecution.
And then killed all the Native Americans. Isn't it interesting that the longest living empires were monarchies, usally with strong ties to religion? |
12-03-2006, 08:43 PM | #970 | |||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-03-2006 at 08:45 PM. |
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12-03-2006, 09:08 PM | #971 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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Well, just look at all the ancient societies.
(all rough figures) Roman Empire - 750 BC to 340 AD (1090 years) Egyptian Empire - 2950 BC to 700 BC (2250 years) Brittish Empire - 900 AD to 1900 AD (1000 years) And America? 1776-2006 (230 years so far) And still gaining power! Wooo!!! *sarcasm* |
12-03-2006, 09:33 PM | #972 |
Word Santa Claus
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Just to clarify some dates:
Roman Republic: 750 BC to 40 BC (710 years) Roman Empire: 40 BC to 370 AD (410 years) Egyptian Old Kingdom: 2750 BC to 2200 BC (550 years) Egyptian Middle Kingdom: 2000 to 1700 BC (300 years) Egyptian New Kingdom: 1600 to 1100 BC (500 years) Anglo-Saxon Britain: 890 AD to 1066 AD (176 years) Norman Britain: 1066 to 1485 AD (319 years) Tudor Britain: 1485 AD to 1603 AD (118 years) Stuart Britain: 1603 AD to 1714 AD (111 years, with a 10-year interregnum and 2 revolutions) Hanoverian Britain (generously) 1714 AD to present (292 years and counting) And those are just major breakdowns, with much more significant breaks than anything the US has had. Lengths of ancient empires tend to be exaggerated, because we ignore major upheavals because they aren't common knowledge.
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12-04-2006, 01:05 AM | #973 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Saying that humans have no value without a creator is like me saying that my children have no value without me. Their value comes from inside themselves. Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. Last edited by brownjenkins : 12-04-2006 at 01:07 AM. |
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12-04-2006, 05:30 AM | #974 | |
Elf Lord
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It seems as if you are saying that "God give us value/morals/etc. If there is no God, then there are no values/morals/etc." I hope you can see how that in no way accords with a secular viewpoint! |
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12-04-2006, 02:01 PM | #975 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But you're missing the point, Gaffer - we're showing the difference between what is OBSERVABLE in the world today, and what is logically SHOULD be observable if there is/are no god/gods. IOW, what SHOULD be the case if there is no god, and what is actually OBSERVABLE, do not mesh; therefore, that bit of rather large evidence goes against there being no god/gods.
I think there are lots of highly moral non-religious folk; many that I'd trust with my kids more than with some religious folk I know. But that doesn't speak against the existence of a god; in fact, it rather supports it!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-04-2006, 03:16 PM | #976 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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However, Katt, I'm not sure how much I like your figures; Rome existed for a long time before it became great, but it was not too long afterwards that it became a monarchy (coincidence?), and I am a bit dubious about calling early Britain an empire. However, the theory is quite sound. Also, don't forget Byzantium.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-04-2006, 03:17 PM | #977 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-04-2006, 03:25 PM | #978 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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The sword swings both ways:
"Are you saying all who oppose same-sex marriage on religious grounds are hateful homophobes??? What a terrible and vicious thing to say! "
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-04-2006, 04:00 PM | #979 | |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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You know, I kind of feel guilty about being in a heterosexual relationship and not supporting homosexuality, but I'm in love and that's that. |
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12-04-2006, 04:01 PM | #980 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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