03-22-2004, 09:36 PM | #961 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-22-2004, 11:04 PM | #962 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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You're still not putting the whole picture together.
Fossils have never been assumed to be any date. They are estimated to cover a rate of dates based on the stratigraphy principles. The only assumption made about fossils is that they may be from the same time span from which the same fossils have been found in of locations, whose geologic ages have been determined stratiographically. In addition to the priciple of supraposition the are constants based on the physical properties of the rock. Sedimentary rocks accumulate in very specifc ranges of conditions. Metamirphic rocks require very specific pressures (depths) and temperatures and cooling rates to form. Tectonic activity adds features such as folds and faults so that features like ingneous intrusions that cross these features are younger by logical deduction. For example, here on the east coast there are some very old, fold metagreywackes (mudstones) that make up the Piedmont Plateau. These are overlain on the west by gently folded Paleozoic sedimentary rocks. These rocks are cross cut by the blue ridge and related intrusive activity that was part of the spreading of the Atlantic Ocean. Additionally there are undeformed sedimetary formations on the eastern flank of the plateau. Before anyone knew about Plate Tectonics geologists noticed that the exact same formations (sequences fossils etc) existed in Europe, Africa, and North America but limited to regions close to the coast. When Plate Tectonics was first proposed. geologists measured the rate at which the ocean floors spread, mapped the formations that made up the sea floor. The ages correlated very well with the radiometric date. Sea floor spreading has so consistently correlated with the radiometric dates of the core samples taken from intervals from the spreading ridges. Magnetic reversals confirm the consistency and parallel band nature of the sea floor basalts. Observed deposition rates for different grain sizes, faunal suites, and sedimentary structures in older rocks can be observed in current environments of deposition which allow the measurement of the time frame it takes to accumulate those certain rock types. For the radiometric dating to be nothing but an assuption then all the other correlating techniques must be wrong as well. Materials would have to defy they physical properties, continents rip apart at speeds that are orders of magnitude greater than observed. Sand would have to suddenly change the stream flow rate at which it deposits or erodes. Melting points of rocks would have to change. Rocks would suddenly have to bear pressures they never have been observed to bear without fracturing. Not to mention that the half lives of isotopes would have to be variable over time (sometimes, and unobservably). There is no scientific basis to cast aspertions on radiometric dating in general. Rejecting it requires rejecting observable, repeatable, testable principles, known facts and almost all pysical laws. The idea that an omnipotent god is not bound by any of these things is plausable, but that is just the "magic trick" explanation which does not require the rejection of radiometric dating or evolution for that matter. The only obstacle to achieving theistic evolution is a dogmatic adherence to a literal interpretation of the creation tales in the judeao-christian bible. Seems to be less messy to see the biblical stories as theological, educational, cultural metaphor than to reject facts that can be easily demonstrated as truth.
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03-22-2004, 11:44 PM | #963 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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nice research paper pants! i give you an A+
also R*an, there is not just one secret society of evolution scientists... fame and fortune is made by coming up with better solutions... if there was a valid theory out there to completely debunk the idea of evolution it would be jumped upon without a second thought
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03-24-2004, 06:20 PM | #964 | ||
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BTW, I don't think evolutionists killed JFK! and I have some bits to post on dating in answer to the recent posts, but just haven't dug up the energy yet to get to it - I've been enjoying the Tolkien threads. It's hard to be the minority poster here, and I need to be in the right mood to tackle it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-24-2004, 10:18 PM | #965 |
Quasi Evil
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Well heres another thing to worry about for you unfortunately. But its defenitely an interesting development for those who haven’t already heard. Basically the skinny is that a group of scientists have discovered a gene in humans that inhibits the growth of certain jaw muscles that would otherwise restrict the capacity of the skull to expand thereby limiting the brain capacity of the individual. But with this mutant gene “we” (our ancient ancestors) were free to evolve the much more complex brain that has proven so successful for us. One should note that the mutation is first noted approx. 2.5 million years ago a time that also matches up with a sudden blossoming of tool making and higher thinking displays by ancient man. Massive coincidence? Or do they have something here. Heres the full article but I think the most important thing to keep in mind here is NOT that this is either absolute fact or dead wrong but that genetic finds are beggining to show a regular pattern of coordination with fossil evidence. Two pieces to this ancient puzzle seem to be coming together more and more with each new discovery. Its also interesting to note that this shows us that man is not a product of “evolutionary perfection” at all but in fact what made him successful was actually a DEFECT from what would have been normal for ancient apes. Which brings us back to that whole “genetic burden” thing. But anyway, see the next thread:
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03-24-2004, 10:20 PM | #966 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-25-2004, 10:23 AM | #967 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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interesting read IR... thanks for posting
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03-25-2004, 03:25 PM | #968 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Yes, very interesting, IR. However, the genetic differences between hominids and other primates are logically significant in differentiation/speciation. The significance and implications, as well as the sequence of events are debatable, as shown by the various points of view in the article regarding this particular finding and hypothesis. Researchers often over emphasize the importance of their findings. For instance, a recent news article announcing evidence for "seas" on Mars turned out to be evidence of a two inch deep puddle. I'm sure that there are a significant number of genetic variations that are equally neccessary for the speciation to have been complete.
Creationists should note the contention and rancor within the scientific community over the interpretation of such findings. They don't use up all their contempt on creationism. This article should allay Rian's doubts regarding BJ's statement about competing evolutionary hypotheses and the motivation to debunk the theories of fellow scientists.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 03-25-2004 at 03:29 PM. |
03-25-2004, 05:14 PM | #969 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-27-2004, 07:34 AM | #970 | |
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Re: Re: Radiometric dating part three:
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germ theory, atomic theory, quantum theory, plate tectonics and evolution came to be accepted- by scientists coming up with discrepancies and unexplained data that couldn't fit into the ruling paradigm. If that's what scientific creationists spent their time doing, I don't think anyone woud possibly object. Note that the scientists involved in the controversies above did NOT spend their time lobbying politicians to demand that their ideas be placed in elementary and secondary school textbooks, organising 'debates' for general audiences, printing comic books ridiculing their opponents or building museums to push their own ideas to the public. They were serious scientists and fought their battles on the scientific level. The reason that creationists don't (with rare exceptions as you noted above) is that they can't- they have nothing to bring to the process- and that includes the IDers, who were supposed to be developing an institute for actually doing research, but have instead chosen to devote their efforts to public advocacy ( I was going to say 'propoganda', but let's keep it nice )
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03-27-2004, 08:58 AM | #971 | |
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My favorite argument on this: 1) Tycho Brahe, Christian Huyghens, Louis Agassiz. 2) Galileo, Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin Group 1- all extremely eminent scientists of their time, all with great innovations to their credit, but each defenders of an established truth that was eventually rejected- geocentrism, relationism, and fixity of species respectively. Group 2- revolutionaries who overturned the established order. Is there any doubt which group any aspiring young scientist would want to be in?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 03-27-2004 at 08:59 AM. |
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03-27-2004, 11:47 PM | #972 | |||
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Re: Re: Re: Radiometric dating part three:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-28-2004, 10:28 AM | #973 |
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In my opinion......There's an obvious reason creation isn't in text books. It's not honest science, it's an old myth....and it's "scientists" are simply doing damage control, with their religious faith leading the way. *God rules my world* scientists are trying to push their religious faith by raising a fake ruckus.....and then trying to label their "story" science. They stick a few pieces of actual modern science into the pretty story, but the bottom line always goes back to the bible....a very old book of stories, full of politically influenced, human interpretations. I believe this thread and the other evolution threads back my opinion up. No "creation evidence" has come forth that has been convincing in any cohesive way. To me, the creation science thing is merely very religious people crying "foul" because modern science doesn't match their bibles. While scientific theories will certainly become more refined as we learn more, I give the Garden of Eden and *god made the world in a week* miniscule odds.
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03-28-2004, 06:04 PM | #974 | |
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These things set the Bible apart from the majority of other historical documents. The main thing that tends to disappoint a lot of historians is the fact that it constistently describes miracles and the intervention of God. |
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03-28-2004, 06:11 PM | #975 |
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Leif, you have to argue that it *is* political. Consider this: how many books were under consideration for the bible ... and how many made it in? How many are written by women? Exclusions speaks just as importantly as what went into the bible. And then you have to consider revisionism - is that not political?
Excuse if none of this makes sense - I'm very sick at the moment. I have a cold and a couple of essays to write... bad combo.
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03-28-2004, 06:33 PM | #976 | |
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03-28-2004, 07:54 PM | #977 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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The major events were generally accurate enough from correlating evidence. It would be pointlesss in times when literacy was rare to "rewrite history", but certainly a subjective "spin" on history was the rule rather than the exception in all historical documents until recent times when literacy and the printing press raised the standards. Froissart's Chronicles are a good example of a historical document with a provincial spin. Useful as a guide to events of the times but not to be taken completely at face value.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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03-29-2004, 10:19 AM | #978 |
Elf Lord
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Good new blog on the evolution/creation front:
http://pandasthumb.org/ And with a name like that you know which side they're on
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
04-17-2004, 08:43 PM | #979 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
04-22-2004, 12:52 PM | #980 | ||
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So... you REAL debate thread for RELIGION people were saying something about Creationism?
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