Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ararax
is any religion perfect? if you say one is your deluded, its about ones personal relationship to God, its bout a persons heart not bout how they look

I agree that it's about your place with God. Why that contradicts a religion being correct, I fail to see.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
You expect every Christian to be perfect and free from temptation simply because it's the correct religion?

Not at all............... I would expect a good Christian to obey what Jesus said and to obey the ten commandments ..........and not to ignore them when a simple man said it was "Gods will " that they should feel that it was more important not to.

It seems simple to me..........either obey the basic doctrine or ignore it when other things seem to be more important *shrugs*

[Ararax]

religion is mans take on the divine, religion can be used for evil purpouses jsut like a bible, you can beat the hell out of someoen with a bible, or you can help them with it, so is it religion or evil people, and i never defend religion

religion cant be perfect because there are always changes, are you saying todays version of religion X is correct, cause 40 years ago it was different, and 40 years from nwo somethign else will be, its got to be 100% to be perfect.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Please tell me the passage.

See my posts on page 45, please. I have written responding to that post of Azalea's.


I actually really wish more of you would respond to those posts on page 45. At least read them. Don't bring up the same questions here that they answered. I've discussed God's love, nature, science, who goes to heaven, spiritual experience. Later on I wrote on faith. You are bringing up the same questions or false assumptions without responding to what I've said on them.

If you have difficulties with these views, rather than repeating the same questions I answered, please read my answers and then question my answers. Thank-you .

I read your posts. Im not really interested in commenting on them because they arent relavent to me at all. My eyes glaze over when things get on too much of a micro scripture level to be honest. I like looking at the broad picture on things. So I was commenting on what Azalea said and using it to make a general point. Not talking about anything you said necessarily. And anyway your response to her started with "I personally think that that view is very incorrect." And I have no problem with your personal beliefs on christianity. its what you believe. its your opinion. ill never tell you not to believe it. but ill certainly make reference to something a christian says if i think it makes my point as well see.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Coney
Not at all............... I would expect a good Christian to obey what Jesus said and to obey the ten commandments ..........and not to ignore them when a simple man said it was "Gods will " that they should feel that it was more important not to.

I agree here. There are many bad witnesses, present day and historical.

Originally posted by Coney
It seems simple to me..........either obey the basic doctrine or ignore it when other things seem to be more important *shrugs*

People that are willing to ignore their beliefs when it's inconvenient to follow them are either not true believers or too afraid.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Ararax
religion is mans take on the divine, religion can be used for evil purpouses jsut like a bible, you can beat the hell out of someoen with a bible, or you can help them with it, so is it religion or evil people, and i never defend religion

religion cant be perfect because there are always changes, are you saying todays version of religion X is correct, cause 40 years ago it was different, and 40 years from nwo somethign else will be, its got to be 100% to be perfect.

Actually, many different studies have shown that the Old Testament is in its original form, dating from 1500 B.C. The New Testament has far more verification.

Greenlee writes in Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticim about the time gap between the original MSS (the autograph) and the extant MSS (the old copy surviving) saying that "the oldest known MSS. Of most of the Greek classical authors are dated a thousand years or more after the author’s death. The time interval for the Latin authors is somewhat less, varying down to a minimum of three centuries in the case of Virgil. In the case of the New Testament, however, two of the most important MSS. were written within 300 years after the New Testament was completed, and some virtually complete New Testament books as well as extensive fragmentary MSS. of many parts of thet New Testament date back to one century from the original writings."

Greenlee adds that "Since scholars accept as generally trustworthy the writings of the ancient classics even though the earliest MSS. were written so long after the original writings and the number of extant MSS. Is in many instances so small, it is clear that the reliability of the text of the New Testament is likewise assured."

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I read your posts. Im not really interested in commenting on them because they arent relavent to me at all. My eyes glaze over when things get on too much of a micro scripture level to be honest. I like looking at the broad picture on things. So I was commenting on what Azalea said and using it to make a general point. Not talking about anything you said necessarily. And anyway your response to her started with "I personally think that that view is very incorrect." And I have no problem with your personal beliefs on christianity. its what you believe. its your opinion. ill never tell you not to believe it. but ill certainly make reference to something a christian says if i think it makes my point as well see.

Taking what one Christian said and using it to make a broad statement about all Christianity is not a very wise thing to do, though. Particularly not when the next Christian you meet is ready to debate that point, immediately.

Also, it's not very logical to assume that a micro scripture level view is dishonest. Life and science are all complex. If this religion is true, why cannot it be complex sometimes too? If there is an apparent contradiction, it's logical to look closely to see if that's true.

Putting relevant passages of the Bible into use and using their logical meanings to understand what the Bible says on a specific issue seems like a fine way to go about it, to me.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Well, let's see: You named the ancient Romans as a good example of Paganism. There were lots of things. Burning people alive as torches, feeding them to lions, crucifixion, and so on. Also, the ancient Romans did attempt to wipe out Christians in their Empire, just as Christianity did to Pagans in Christendom.

By the way, do you consider human sacrifice to be "bad"?

Please note, I'm not attacking Paganism. I'm just stating that bad things have been done by at least nearly all religions.

As a side note, what branch of Paganism are you? And another side note: do Pagans consider Druidry to be Pagan, or a different religion?

You're equating Roman persecution with the Genocide that has been exucuted in the name of Christianity? Did you know that even when Christianity was intergrated in the Roman Empire that Christians being secrificed in the Colluseum (watched by Christians) were merely seen as Matyrs?.........Hypocrasy in the extreme (right up there with the death sentence in the US).....yes believe it or not, there were more killings during th "Holy Roman Empire" than there were before

Do I consider human sacrifice to be bad?.......... Yes, but then again I don't practise it.........so you consider killing the unfaithful or the unGodly bad?

Not telling (my business ty) ask a Druid, there are plenty about

[Ararax]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Actually, many different studies have shown that the Bible is in its original form, dating from 1500 B.C.

i did not say the bible is different, the dead sea scroll prove that it is, im talking about dogma, and doctrin, cathlic dogma has changed, baptist doctrin has changed, its the way they view the bible that matters, so one can NOT follow rules that one has not developed on ones own effort, cause to do somethign one does not believe to be right is a sin by any religion. if you say i am a baptist you are saying you believe their whole doctrin, much of which you ahve not developed on your own.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Coney
You're equating Roman persecution with the Genocide that has been exucuted in the name of Christianity? Did you know that even when Christianity was intergrated in the Roman Empire that Christians being secrificed in the Colluseum (watched by Christians) were merely seen as Matyrs?.........Hypocrasy in the extreme (right up there with the death sentence in the US).....yes believe it or not, there were more killings during th "Holy Roman Empire" than there were before

Do I consider human sacrifice to be bad?.......... Yes, but then again I don't practise it.........so you consider killing the unfaithful or the unGodly bad?

Not telling (my business ty) ask a Druid, there are plenty about

I'm sorry; did I say that the Christians didn't persecute people as well? I certainly didn't mean to. I was only asking why you only mention that done by Christians (or Jews or Muslims), and never that done by Pagans? Also, Hindus tried to wipe out Buddhism when it first sprung up, too.

Of COURSE! Sheesh, you didn't think I was saying you practiced it, did you? I was merely saying that about things that Pagans have done, as this was done in the olden days by Pagans. I figured you thought so, but I wasn't sure. I'm very sorry if you thought I was saying you practiced it.

All right, sorry for asking.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Coney
You're equating Roman persecution with the Genocide that has been exucuted in the name of Christianity? Did you know that even when Christianity was intergrated in the Roman Empire that Christians being secrificed in the Colluseum (watched by Christians) were merely seen as Matyrs?.........Hypocrasy in the extreme (right up there with the death sentence in the US).....yes believe it or not, there were more killings during th "Holy Roman Empire" than there were before

Do I consider human sacrifice to be bad?.......... Yes, but then again I don't practise it.........so you consider killing the unfaithful or the unGodly bad?

Not telling (my business ty) ask a Druid, there are plenty about

In India right now, the Hindus are stamping out the last remaining Christians. In Vietnam, in Sri Lanca, in Indonesia, in China, in Pakistan, in Egypt, in Uzbekestan, in Saudi Arabia, Christians are being tortured, brutalized, suppressed, murdered for their faith. The children of our people are sold as slaves, and members of congregations forced by torture and rape to tell lies about their pastors, so that the government can close their churches. I have been praying for the Christians in these countries, and I read what is going on. The governments and religions are trying to crush us out of existance, as they have done since the founding of our faith.

We, on the other hand, in those countries are behaving as Christ would have us do. We are not the oppressors in any of those cases, and you are ignoring the horrible acts of the past which have been done by other nations. Look at the statements of Jesus. They are not about oppression and control, but about love, gentleness and mercy. The contrast between us and the forces that attempt to crush us in those countries are very great.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Lief, I hope you're not saying that Christendom hasn't done such things in the past?

[Coney]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
We, on the other hand, in those countries are behaving as Christ would have us do. We are not the oppressors in any of those cases, and you are ignoring the horrible acts of the past which have been done by other nations. Look at the statements of Jesus. They are not about oppression and control, but about love, gentleness and mercy. The contrast between us and the forces that attempt to crush us in those countries are very great.

Lief, in parts of America they are still eletrocuting to death people in the name of God!!! (every law breaker swears on the bible before they testify in court right?)

Look to your own shores before you look outwards ........by abiding by the rules of your county, and then criticising others, you're living as a hypocrite

Thou shalt not kill!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Coney
Thou shalt not kill!

I just want to say, that I believe the Hebrew word means "murder" more than just flat out "kill". Not sure though...

[Lief Erikson]

I cannot blame on the Christian religion. God's Word I find to be correct. Our interpretation of God's Word can be faulty, and it is always faulty when we manipulate it to serve our own ends.

We are people. Christians are people and nonChristians are people. People do villainous things. Christians and nonChristians alike. Every human being on this planet is a person, and no person is sinless.

This is acknowledged. My question still stands and my opinion remains the same. God's Word is not incorrect, but us, being human, can be. That is why Christians are guilty as well as nonChristians. As a matter of a fact, you are somewhat right in one aspect of Christians being more guilty. We are more guilty because as it says in the Bible that the individual who knows the truth but does not keep it- it would be better for him that he had not known the truth at all.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Taking what one Christian said and using it to make a broad statement about all Christianity is not a very wise thing to do, though. Particularly not when the next Christian you meet is ready to debate that point, immediately.

how can anything you say possibly refute my opinion that the bible is mostly an ancient tomb relating semi-historical stories to deliver a message (a mostly good message in my opinion) about how we should live our lives. and NOT to be taken word for word as literal. no more so then a Dr. Suess book should be.

The point I was making is when I jump up and down and say that the bible is real neat and all but it should be taken as a GUIDE for living not as a LITERAL text book that can not be interpreted in any other way and that any other open form of thinking goes against it I get either ignored completely or told "shut up yer not christian what do you know." So I felt quoting someone who was christian on this point to show MY point as well was perfectly reasonable. Are you saying its not?

not very logical to assume that a micro scripture level view is dishonest.

when did i say it was dishonest? i just said its kind of irelavent for me to look into it at that level considering my beliefs on it as I said above. probably the same reason i have a hard time really arguing over if what Tolkien really meant when some elf in the silmarillion did this or that and 8 people have different interpretations on its real significance. well sometimes it can make for semi-interesting reading but often times i end up thinking um but its just a book of fiction. why sweat the details so much. i know this is blasphamy to some of the tolkien purists on here (and the people who think they are elves) but to me its a cool story that says some interesting things about people and faith and brotherhood and questing and how to live right and how good and evil are bound together and how the weakest can be the strongest and... wait does this sound familiar at all? Where is Gwaimir and his Tolkien is scripture argument when you need him?

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I just want to say, that I believe the Hebrew word means "murder" more than just flat out "kill". Not sure though...

Maybe right there GW......but being shackled and tied to a chair is pretty much murder in my book.............

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Lief, I hope you're not saying that Christendom hasn't done such things in the past?

No. But Coney, in my opinion, is heaping an unjust amount of blame upon Christianity, and I haven't yet seen him acknowledge the evils others in the world are doing that aren't Christian. When we follow our religion and walk in Christ's footsteps, we are blameless. Many Christians have strayed or done incorrect things, in this Coney is right, yet I think he is ignoring some very large facts.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney
Lief, in parts of America they are still eletrocuting to death people in the name of God!!!

WoW!!! Where???

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
No. But Coney, in my opinion, is heaping an unjust amount of blame upon Christianity, and I haven't yet seen him acknowledge the evils others in the world are doing that aren't Christian. When we follow our religion and walk in Christ's footsteps, we are blameless. Many Christians have strayed or done incorrect things, in this Coney is right, yet I think he is ignoring some very large facts.

Now, this is untrue. Muslims also, and I think Jews (not sure about this).