04-07-2006, 04:27 PM | #941 | |
Elf Lord
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I felt it necessary to do the scripture analysis on that occasion, to refute Gwaimir's claim that Christianity can be reasonably (or even slightly reasonably) interpreted as calling for violence. If his claim went unanswered, it would appear that Christianity is approximately the same as Islam, and then I have nothing left to stand on in this whole discussion. That's why I had show why he was wrong.
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04-07-2006, 04:27 PM | #942 |
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Lief, werent you making basically the opposite point in this thread? http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=529019
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04-07-2006, 04:32 PM | #943 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-07-2006, 04:56 PM | #944 | ||
An enigma in a conundrum
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"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the Poeple of The Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." Qur'an 9:29
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04-07-2006, 06:52 PM | #945 | ||||||||||||||||
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Did Jesus ever raise a sword against anyone, or permit his disciples to do so? Are any of the early Christians recorded as having been responsible for violence? This passage is not a difficulty if one looks at it in context. Though I can see that it could be used to advocate violence when taken completely out of context. Quote:
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04-07-2006, 07:41 PM | #946 | ||||
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I'm responding to most of your post in the Theology Thread, Gwaimir. That part of it which in my opinion relates to the arguments surrounding Islam though, I'm going to respond to here.
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*Suddenly comprehension dawns.* OH, now I see what you're on about. Quote:
But as you can see now, looking at that whole speech from Jesus, there was a lot on persecution and also instructions for how the disciples were to behave if rejected or persecuted. None of those instructions included violence. And furthermore, as I said, that "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword," is in the context of describing in the same speech the sacrifice Jesus' followers must make on his behalf and the severity and details of the persecution they would go through. Furthermore, a little writing point that I didn't mention before. Jeseus said, "a man's enemies will be the members of his own household," right after he said, "I will bring a sword." That doesn't say, "a man will be the enemy of his own household," which would imply that Christians are supposed to be violent, but rather says that the household will be enemies with him. The sentence structure implies that the household is going to oppose him rather than he oppose the household. Though that's not so important as the context. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-07-2006 at 08:09 PM. |
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04-07-2006, 08:05 PM | #947 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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EDIT: But anyway...back to Muslims!
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04-07-2006, 09:07 PM | #948 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-08-2006, 01:56 AM | #949 | |||
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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Rian, *moothug* I sure miss it a lot!
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And, where in all my writings have you seen me supporting Sharia law, or forcing non-Muslims to accept Islam? I am not here to defend the Muslim socieites of this world... there are too many, and of too many kinds. I am defending Islam. And I am defending its right to exist, and trying to show you the benefits it confers on a society. Now, I am not very advanced in my religious studies. I have not read all the teachings, but I have read much of the Quran... which is the ultimate Scripture for Islam. And, nowhere does it say that we force people to convert... rather I find teachings that advocate tolerance. There are Islamic societies, where the legalisation of Islam is carried too far, but there are also societies, such as mine, where we (Muslims and those of other faiths) exist side-by-side peacefully. if your argument, Lief, had been that we try to change these extremist societies, and work to make them more tolerant, it would be a valid one. But I find your proposition of wiping out Islam quite preposterous. Jihad... what a difficult word it is. And, yes, we do interpret it as a spiritual battle (hmmm... am I fighting a jihad here, I wonder? ) but in the time of Mohammad, they were told to take up arms, against those who had driven them out from their homes, and those who oppressed them... which actually seems quite fair, and if they had only cried out something like "freedom! Liberty" etc. instead of "Allah" you could quite forgive them. And, you have to admit, even though Islam spread by wars, and violence, it spread at a phenomenol rate... and it was accepted whole-heartedly by the people of those nations'; if they had been 'forced' to convert, then the religion would not have lasted long in them. And, you have to admit, Islam did away with much of the oppression and cruelty that had existed before. How can you, Lief, judge of what the Prophet did? Simply by labelling his acts as violence? Who is to judge the atrocities of a war, without having been there? Without judging also the after-effects of such a war? I think also, that it is a bit rich of you to accuse Islam of violence, when it is the non-Muslims who have attacked and taken over Afghanistan and Iraq. And that is not violence? That is peaceful? The Iraqis love the American rule? Their lives are somwhow better because they have effectively lost their freedom, and are now being led by those who know better how their lives should be led??? Raking up the supposed 'violence' of centuries ago, comparing Jesus and Mohammed, and ignoring altogether what is happening now, in this century and time, is downright silly. When was the last time, you saw a Muslim army attack and invade another country, under the name of Jihad? Quote:
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Ah! Long post... I have myself lost the thread of what I'm saying. By the way, funny thing... I was reading some of the Quran last night, and come across this line : "Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah." - The Quran, Chapter 2, Verse 120. Made me think of you, Lief. Its fate... you were pre-ordained to be unhappy with me, and I to resist!
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04-08-2006, 02:53 AM | #950 | |||||||||||||
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Then Mohammed made a truce with the Qur'ayshe, and he used the time of truce to exterminate their allies, the Jews of Kaybar, in order to weaken the Qur'ayshe. He also raided caravans of the Qur'ayshe and their trade partners, and took many hostages and a great deal of money. Thus he weakened the Qur'ayshe, and when he had weakened them sufficiently he came to Mecca in what was pretty much a completely peaceful take-over. Of course, if I recall correctly he expelled all the Jews shortly after also. After he conquered the Qur'ayshe, Mohammed went on to conquer all the other pagan tribes of Arabia, many of which had done him no wrong at all. This was aggressive warfare, all out attack without provocation. He forced conversion too- these were disloyal Muslims who hated him. As soon as Mohammed died, most of them rebelled. Then Abu Bakr, Mohammed's successor, conquered them all over again with the sword in the ridda wars. After he had secured Arabia, he turned his eyes on the rest of the world. I don't think it was he who made the major invasions of the rest of the world though- I think it was his successor. (Frowns) I can't really remember this part in as much detail. Quote:
They completely destroyed the Sassanid Empire and they also conquered a huge swath of the Byzantine Empire. These were the mighty superpowers of their time, and the Muslims of Arabia conquered them in their jihads through extreme religious zeal and courage. It was a ferocious invasion that utterly horrified many of the Christians in Byzantine lands. It made the Christians question God and say, "are we worshipping the true religion? How can our God have allowed these infidels to conquer us so easily?" It caused much questioning of their beliefs among Christians and Jews. Those invasions are totally scary to me, because of their success and the type of rule that was established. The Muslims were not accepted whole-heartedly by everyone, though many accepted them, particularly in Egypt. Some accepted Islam whole-heartedly, because the Byzantines and Sassanids had been very oppressive governments, in many ways. Others were forced to pay the jizya, as Spock has been saying. Non-Muslims were oppressed in those days under Muslim law, though it's true that Muslim law was more tolerant than the laws of many other countries of that time. They were intolerant enough though to show that Islam wasn't exactly peace, especially in view of all the violence. All Muslims were extremists in those times, completely ready to give their lives in jihad for what they believed, and that is why they were so completely successful. None of those they conquered, in spite of all their might, had anywhere near that kind of certainty, relentless determination and courage. Quote:
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That's what has me somewhat scared about the modern terrorists as well. If the Muslims under Mohammed's successors, with such limited resources but fanatical faith, could attack the mighty Sassanid and Byzantine Empires simultaneously and win, what can the modern terrorists do? Like the Muslims of the past, they are attacking superpowers with extremely limited resources but faith so zealous that they will die for what they believe in. Also I would like to point out that these invasions of unoffending non-Muslim lands were far, far greater in scale than the Crusades. I don't know so much about what atrocities might have happened during those wars because the records aren't detailed enough from that early century, and many of the records we do have come from the Muslims. But those campaigns were incredibly successful and conquered huge swaths of territory, peoples that did them no harm. They oppressed multitudes of nonbelievers with the jizya, and sliced down non-Muslim numbers by those economic and discriminatory policies, for many would rather change their faith than live under those laws. However, the Muslim invaders also did some incredibly positive things for those lands. They greatly enriched those peoples economically and culturally. There is much beauty and learning that comes from those time periods. Islam skyrocketed to become the peak of civilization in those years. You know, when the Crusaders invaded Muslim lands, they brought back with them to Europe many inventions and new knowledge from Muslim territories. For example, did you know that Europe had forgotten about Plato? They had to rediscover him from the libraries in Muslim lands. They brought back many advances to improve their civilizations, from the Holy Land. Islam's early invasions stopped I believe because of civil war. *Frowns* I'll have to research that again though, for I'm not quite sure. But I know they did come against Europe, at least twice. Charlemagne stopped the Muslim invaders at Poitiers, thank God. In a second invasion, Muslims attacked Europe a second time but this time over sea, in future years. However, they were slaughtered in their thousands and their fleets destroyed, and that was the end of their attacks on Europe for many years. The Muslims kept engaging in their violent jihad until they couldn't do it anymore. When the European powers split up the Muslim lands between them and economically took over everything, violent jihad was no longer an option and the word had to be redefined to still be practical. That's where modern and more peaceful interpretations of Islam came from. But unfortunately, those interpretations are fading as Islam begins to turn back to a version closer to the original- the radical and fundamentalist version of conquest and Muslim morals laws being enforced upon whole populations, with discriminatory laws and persecution being the penalty of noncompliance. Also extremists seek again to create an Islamic, theologically based empire like that of the past. But there are many liberals and peaceful Muslims in Islam too, at this point in history. So that's the story of Islam as I've learned it from the history books and news websites going up to this time, without getting into discussing the Ottomans or the invasions of India - or the many peaceful and spectacular cultural, philosophical, literary, artistic and other achievements that Islam has spread throughout the territories Mohammed's successors conquered. There are of course loads of details and facts I've not covered. This is just a cursory look. Quote:
Afghanistan also is a very free government. That, I think, was pretty much proven by the fact that they nearly executed a man recently for converting from Islam to Christianity. Raman only was allowed to live because they decided he was insane. Can you imagine a US controlled government trying to execute someone for converting to Christianity? Quote:
Times have changed. The US is a mighty superpower now, and attacking it with armies is completely futile. Muslims who mean us harm know this. Terrorism is the new option for them, however. It is the new form of warfare in this modern era, and some Muslim countries, such as Iran, fund terrorists who fight against coalition forces and the Iraqi people. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-08-2006 at 03:52 AM. |
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04-08-2006, 03:50 AM | #951 | |
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If you insult someone's mother/girlfriend/wife...he may punch you. It hits close to home. It is not a sensible thing to do, or a good thing to do - and most people would be able to restrain themselves...nonetheless some people might punch you, and it would be fair to say that they were provoked, if not 'right'. If a society at large sends out messages that a particular religion is dangerous, or violent, or evil...how can those who practice that religion avoid taking it personally? Even if you are peaceful, even if your quarrel is with the religion itself, and not with the individuals who practice it, individuals who see the religion as central to their sense of self will perceive a personal attack. If you speak of destroying a religion, however peacefully, for a person who practices that religion seriously you speak of destroying something which is central to everything they believe. Most people will not react violently. Most people will be saddened that you do not understand what - for them - is a source of enlightenment, and something beautiful, not dangerous. Just like most people will be disappointed that you don't share their high opinion of their mother/girlfriend/wife. But some people will feel the need to "defend" that which is dear to them. This is not something exclusive to Islam - it applies to other religions, and to athiests and agnostics too if some equivalent to religion can be found. It has less to do with the nature of a religion than with the nature of some people. A couple of years ago, some Hindu fanatics brutally murdered a family of Christian missionaries. Hinduism is not a violent religion; Hinduism is not even a religion really (it's more of a philosophy) - but this peaceful act of trying to convert could provoke a disgusting, violent response in some people who felt the need to 'defend' it. The overwhelming majority of Hindus found this abhorrent. The overwhelming majority of Muslims find al Qaeda abhorrent. If it seems that there are more violent interpretations of Islam around at the moment than of any other religion, it is because there is more hostility today from the West directed at Islam than at any other religion. |
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04-08-2006, 04:09 AM | #952 | |
Elf Lord
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I agree with all you said, elfearz. All except the last sentence .
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There also is a great deal of hostility in Western culture toward Christianity. I've encountered a lot more people, both on Entmoot and at college, who have a great deal of anger against Christianity than who have anger toward Islam. Much of modern culture is turned against Christians and stereotypes them as stupid people who rely on blind faith and savagely conquer anyone who disagrees with them . An insane stereotype, but it exists and I've seen it a lot, coming through in people's arguments and treatment of Christians at different times both here and elsewhere. This is largely a Western attitude. I think it's very sad and I view it as highly ignorant. I expect that's how many Muslims view people like me, as well. But in spite of living in this culture, you won't see any Christian violence or much retaliation at all against people who make these stereotypes and claims in the West. You will see some response stereotyping, the lilly livered liberal with whom anything goes, but all this cultural stratifying could never be a source of violence, here.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-08-2006 at 04:10 AM. |
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04-08-2006, 04:28 AM | #953 |
Spaceman Spiff
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I don't have a problem with any religion, it's when a religion goes around killing in the name of a god to justify their killing that I have a problem with. Wheither it was the Christians in the Crusades, or Muslims with jihad. I mean, war is bad enough, is there really a need to say that a higher power is in control of of your war?
*runs out of thread before someone throws tomatoes at him*
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04-08-2006, 10:03 AM | #954 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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ok, I gotta jump in here-probably to no avail It seems that studying, reading and interpreting has caused this to be a point of contention amongst you two. My background education says that Jesus was referring to the 'sword' that would come because people converted to His religion; i.e. from Rome. Thus certain family members would be put to the sword while others would not. This is more in tune with what actually happened in that period of time. ....only for viewpoint...not for debate
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04-08-2006, 10:55 AM | #955 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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Lief, Don't have much time to talk right now, but I'll reply to one or two points.
Firstly, about Sharia law. I have not said that I think we should go ahead and put Sharia law in Western societies to remove anarchy. I was pointing out why, for us, an Islamic society is so much more preferable. There are always people who will crave personal freedom, but there are people too, who prefer order. If you removed Islam, then you would remove these societies, and all the benefits they conferred. You find it scary that Islam spread so quickly, and I know you'll point fingers, or say extremism, but I believe it is because it was Allah's will. I suppose you are frowning now, but how else do you explain it?? Anyway, Lief, I find you being contradictory. On one hand you say there were many good effects of Islam being spread, but also many bad effects. Who is to judge them on a scale and say whether good or bad predominated? Then again, you say that now, in the present world, there are a few extremists, and many others who are NOT extreme. But you are afraid they will lose their sensible natures, somehow become charged with the craziness and thus they need to be converted before they become a threat. All 'mays', 'maybes' and 'probably's. And when I talk of defending Islam, why, oh, why do you imagine I am talking about someone bopping you on the head? Thats twice you took my innocent statement, and put a violent interpretion on it. The justice of the thing, is as elfearz says. Of course, we'll get riled up. Of course, we will defend our right to practise our own faith. And, obviously we are not going to take happily preaching that would do much better work at home. A few tracts to those angry modern lily-livered liberals would do a whole lot more good, before you come offering them to us. Don't talk logically of preaching Christianity till Islam disappears. For one thing, there is too much bad blood between the two religions for one to embrace willingly the other. For another thing, it will lead to violence, needless violence, and if peace is your motive, then perhaps it will be better to refrain... surely if you go ahead with such a venture knowing full well you are going to offend people, then a large share of any violence that comes from it is your own fault. If you're more worried about peace, then spend more time trying to understand Muslims, and work with them. There has been peace between us for quite a long time, and it is surely possible again.
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04-08-2006, 12:21 PM | #956 | ||||||||||||
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I'm sure many of the Byzantines and Sassanids, and all those Abu Bakr and Mohammed conquered felt the same. Now I know you don't want to see any of these things happen to me or the West either. Muslims in the past didn't feel the same. Europe experienced two ferocious Islamic invasions that they had to block by force of arms. A growing number of Muslims in our own day feel the same way. No matter what good affects might follow for society, I don't want to be made to submit, and that is why I fight when extremists try to do the same thing here as Muslim armies did to India and the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires, and tried to do to Europe. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-08-2006 at 12:30 PM. |
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04-08-2006, 12:22 PM | #957 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-08-2006, 03:59 PM | #958 |
Spaceman Spiff
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I'm sorry Lief, or anyone else, if that offended you. I didn't mean to point out just Chritianity and Islam, I know a lot of other religions have done the same thing.
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04-08-2006, 04:03 PM | #959 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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yumpin yimminie, don't start me on the p.c. christians and the crusades crappola!!
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04-08-2006, 05:08 PM | #960 |
Elf Lord
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Don't worry Faramir, that was a totally non-offensive viewpoint . No offense taken whatsoever.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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