03-08-2007, 07:13 PM | #941 |
Elf Lord
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The fact that I believe his statement to be baloney doesn't make his statement baloney. Believing a myth doesn't make the myth an accurate account of history. Neither does refusing to believe a myth make it not an event of history. Beliefs don't make reality. They make our opinions about reality, and that's it. Humans differ from one another. But their views don't change history in any place except their heads.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
03-09-2007, 07:58 PM | #942 | |
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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03-10-2007, 07:13 PM | #943 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-10-2007, 08:10 PM | #944 |
Elf Lord
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Or, as the poet said,
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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03-12-2007, 05:06 PM | #945 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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That was the bard. Homer is the poet.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-16-2007, 06:56 PM | #946 | ||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
God didn't make us his equals, though he does bring those who are in him closer and closer to him always, and make them more like him. God did make us in his own image, though, and hence we have many similarities to God. One of these is that we have as much freedom as he, in that we both do what we want according to our personalities. So this "dog" has equal freedom to the master. God may control its fate, but his own fate too is controlled by sovereign Love. Love predestines our fates, and God too, who is Love, must only act in accord with Love and according to his own personality. His fate, just like ours, is controlled by Love. That is not an abuse or a degradation to either God or man. Also, consider that to be predestined by Love is far better than to be left to random chance. If Love, as Creator, did not control our futures, he would be leaving our destinies to random chance, playing the dice with human lives. Which is callous, not loving. Think about it this way too. A parent, while he or she has a child, teaches the child, makes rules for the child, influences the child's personality, and brings the child up with some measure of control until the child has grown to adulthood. Note also that the more below us the child is, the more control we have over the child's life. The younger the child is, the more we are dominant and in charge of the child's activities and life. When the child is a newborn, he or she is completely helpless. A mother who refuses to fully take care of her newborn child's needs, who doesn't give him toys, milk, and doesn't take him on walks, change his diapers, bathe him, clothe him, or give him anything to do (remember that the child is completely dependent), but rather leaves him to his own devices and only offers suggestions, is being a nitwit and very unloving. Now remember again our size, the extent of our abilities, and the level of our growth and maturity in comparison with God . . . infinity. We are far, far less than the newborn. As God is infinite and us finite. We are in certain respects on an unimaginably lower level of life, and his having complete control only makes sense, considering that he is loving. Quote:
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The same is true in real life. God predestined all events with a good conclusion and purpose. God created some people in circumstances and with personalities such that they would choose evil. He predestined that pain and injustice to be caused by these people. These personalities are judged, not God's personality, for God had a good reason for making them, and he has wisdom sufficient to know that this is an excellent action. People may do evil with the intent of doing evil, and their motives are evil. God predestines them to do evil, but his purpose is holy, so his action is not the same as theirs, and their personalities and souls can be justly judged, but he is not guilty of the same crimes that they commit. He was responsible for their actions having been committed, but they committed them with evil intent while God predestined them with flawless good intent that will eventually be revealed in full. So the only question that remains is whether or not God did right in creating those evil souls in the first place. God knows more than we do, in his infinity, and he has the right to decide whether or not it is worth it to create temporary creatures who will commit evil and be destroyed for it. We don't know the fullness of how the story will turn out, or the fullness of the meaning God teaches through these different acts of evil and the people predestined to be evil. If you pick up a book, open it at random and read some particularly nasty part in it without reading all the way through the book to the end, you might be mightily displeased and think the author is a terrible writer. You might think that the scene is sappy and so the author is stupid- but you might not know that that scene was intended to be sappy, because those were a couple characters that the author was purposely mocking for humor's sake, and which the readers who started in the beginning are laughing uproariously about. Or you might read a particularly violent part, and if you're sensitive, be turned off from the book at once. If you had reached the end, though, you might have found that it was all very well in place. Here is a key error people make with the problem of how a just God can allow (or even, from a predestination perspective, create!) pain and injustice. They haven't seen all the plot threads to the end, but are making snap judgments based upon their minute place in the story. No offense . But I hope you see what I mean about God being responsible for the same actions people committed, but not having committed the same sins. For they committed those actions for evil purposes, whereas God committed them for holy purposes that come out in perfect righteousness, in the end. And the only guilt, therefore, lies with the created objects, and it is God in his wisdom, and not us, who has the knowledge to know whether or not it is right to create certain people to be evil and judged for their crimes. Quote:
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This is why I often pray, before going into a tricky situation, that God will use me as his mouthpiece, as a "window washed clean, that the sunlight may pass through," is how I pray it. Quote:
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Remember that the Nazis were only 60 years ago, and the USSR was much more recent. So saying that it's much less likely now that anything like that could pop up doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Humanity hasn't changed. Being self-serving can easily create violence. Also, even if a totalitarian state didn't reemerge in the West, that wouldn't prevent massive abuses being committed by the masses. Laws can be changed, and the masses, and their elected politicians and the lawyers who work for them, are perfectly capable of changing them for the worse. Quote:
It means that in the end, actions of great good are exactly equal in value to actions of great equal. They equally have no value or meaning. As Rana was saying, earlier . . . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-16-2007 at 07:02 PM. |
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03-17-2007, 11:44 PM | #947 | ||||||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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I won't quote too much 'cause it'll make the post too long. I'll just hit on a few key points
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The god you are painting is simply a puppeteer putting on a show for himself. Or an author writing a book for an audience of one (himself), if you prefer to think of it that way. He "loves" his creations in the same way that an author "loves" his characters, because it is a representation of his own ability and creativeness. It's a love that stems from self-pride. "I made that marvelous thing", he thinks. Having children is a different kind of love. It starts, as you mentioned, with another being for which you are totally responsible for. You must feed them, care for them, teach them how to survive. It really is like caring for a pet. But, in time, they begin to learn to care for themselves. They still look to you for guidance in times of need but, day to day, they do quite well. Then, eventually, they begin to move beyond that need. They learn to solve problems for themselves and make their own choices. Some of these choices may be ones you lead them towards, while some may be ones you never considered, or some even ones you don't quite agree with. But the love remains. And it's no longer the simple love of "I made that". It's the love of something that is greater than you ever anticipated. They may excel in ways you could never imagine. They may see things in ways you haven't thought of before. They may understand that they are just as important to you as you are to them. It's like the love of a man and a women (or two people, these days ), mutual appreciation. In fact, the more I think about it, I have a hard time conceiving of a truely omniscient/omnipotent being even being capable of love. How can one who knows everything and needs nothing love anyone but himself? It's like the "you can't have good without evil" question. Love stems from dependence and mystery. Quote:
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I read this as Sophistry with a capital "S". Where's GW when I need him? Quote:
They key is not whether everything is determined, but whether we can see that determined path. If life is predestined in a way that we can neither see or conceive, it is random chance as far as we are concerned. I could "make it to the pros" until I fail to, whether or not someone with more understanding could have told me I would fail long before that. Our world is our perception of it. Quote:
I won't claim that I'm so smart that I know evil and oppression won't win out in the longrun, but I don't think it will. I do know that, generally, there are a lot more law-abiding citizens than criminals, so I have reason for hope. Quote:
There is still plenty of room for bad people to take advantage in a democracy, but it is no where near the room it once was, and I believe it will continue to move that way. Even today's Russia and China, while still oppressive, are much more influenced by concerns about the will of the people than they ever were in the past. Quote:
The idea of intrinsic value seems kind of selfish to me. I prefer extrinsic value. Quote:
Personal accomplishments often bring just as much joy to the person who helped you get there as they do to yourself.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-18-2007, 05:40 AM | #948 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Predestination
I'll see about responding to the rest of your post at another date. For now, here's the part responding about predestination:
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The evidence for predestination is the Bible. And the evidence for the Bible's accuracy as a witness of God's truth is absolutely vast and provided by many different fields. I think that Christianity's accuracy as the true world religion is proven "beyond reasonable doubt." Quote:
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You might argue that this kind of knowledge would naturally turn people away from one another, and I think that to a very large extent, you'd be right. Here's another place at which an analogy of human relationships falls short when applied to God. When they know too much of one another's faults and lose that mystery, they might become less appreciative. That depends on the people, I think, and it also is merely an analysis of man's imperfection. God is Love, however, and so doesn't turn away from people just because they sin. The knowledge he has of people doesn't make them boring to him. Knowledge we have of one another just makes the relationship more interesting, and if it instead makes it boring to us, it's because we are at fault and are weak in certain parts of our attitudes, thinking and understanding. Divine love of people is not limited by human imperfections, so the knowledge will only deepen the excitement and depth of God's love. Quote:
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We can sympathize with people as they experience horrible things that turn them toward evil. But once they are evil, if they reach the point of utter rejection of mercy (as we're assuming the damned do, from a Christian perspective) and salvation, then there's nothing left for them but judgment. And contempt, in fact, for a personality of such villainy that it rejected all that is good and right. If God creates something contemptible, the fact that he made it the way it is doesn't validate the contemptuous object. If a human creates something contemptible, the fact that he made it doesn't validate it. The creation stands on its own as a good or a bad creation. The very selves of these damned are corrupt and evil, and thus from those evil selves come all kinds of evil choices, and in the end (note that it is the very end of time that we're talking about, when the courses of everyone's life paths have reached their final conclusions) there is nothing for the evil person God created but well deserved judgment. Even if created to be evil, the evil exists and won't repent. The appropriate response to existing evil is wrath. And God has the wisdom and personality to be trusted when he creates some evil people for the achievement of his holy aims. Quote:
Here's an example. A tells B to rob a noble. B says, "yeah!" and goes and does it. The motive of A was stop the noble from using the money to fund a campaign that is ravaging the villages of nearby peasants to keep them all in a state of submission through fear. The motive of B is fully self-centered greed. B did evil, as he would as willingly have stolen from a good person as from a bad one, and his action was not based upon defending the helpless but on satisfying his own lust for money. The motive of A, however, was compassion. This example may very well be flawed in various ways that you, or even I may end up pointing out. And it doesn't cover the aspect of God creating the personality that would become greedy. It just is an attempt at illustrating my reasoning where I pointed out that an act by man, made with evil motives, isn't necessarily evil when God is responsible for it, with his pure motives.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-18-2007 at 05:41 AM. |
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03-18-2007, 09:17 AM | #949 | |
Elf Lord
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Well.
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http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/relig.html "And to think that I saw it on Mulberry Street." |
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03-18-2007, 11:34 AM | #950 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-18-2007, 11:06 PM | #951 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-19-2007, 11:34 AM | #952 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
But, back to predistination, which I find to be a very interesting concept for a devout christian to hold, how does the story of Abraham and his son fit into that concept? Why would god need to test someone who's "personality" has already been determined? In fact, why would he need to do anything at all? Earlier you said: Quote:
Basically, what's the point of earthly existance if there aren't some choices humans make. Some learning, some growth, some something? Like so many other times in the past, you seem to limit everything to two stark, black and white choices: 1) God controls us, at least in all important ways. or 2) Everything is random chance. You give absolutely no credit to god's creations, or to god, for that matter. Is god not powerful enough to create creatures that can make their own choices, or is he afraid to? What's so terrible about the idea of creating beings with the ability to control their own destinies, showing them the choices that can be made and the likely outcomes in each situation, and then hoping they make the correct choice?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-19-2007, 12:45 PM | #953 |
Elf Lord
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brownjenkins, it also strikes me
as a weird way to approach "created in God's image."
It limits that to "God is a biped". |
03-19-2007, 12:50 PM | #954 | |
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Quote:
"God's image" may mean such things as discernment, logic, compassion...
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03-19-2007, 01:07 PM | #955 | |
Elf Lord
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My point exactly.
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I have trouble seeing that. |
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03-19-2007, 01:24 PM | #956 | |||||
Elf Lord
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My answer to the question is that we learn from the experiences we have on Earth. Experiencing the absence of God makes experiencing his fullness a greater bliss. Having sinned, we can know the beauty of grace on an experiential, rather than merely intellectual level. Having experienced injustice on whatever level (and the deeper the level, the deeper the experiential reward), the greater is our appreciation for justice. We come to know God through our experience here on Earth in ways we couldn't come to know him without evil and pain. The door is opened here on Earth for new depth of life in the hereafter. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-19-2007, 02:16 PM | #957 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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But if all of our important decisions are predestined (the "choice" was never made in the first place) then they are not really "decisions" at all. Quote:
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So, god is responsible for everything, but everything is ultimately good. On the rest, maybe god is extremely powerful, but he does not foreknow everything. In fact, his "change of tactics" in the bible, from the wrathful and direct god of the old testament to the more indirect and nuanced god of the christ and post-christ era may be proof that he is not 100% sure on the best way to shepard his flock and he is working it out along the way. Incredible power and incredible knowledge does not necessarily have to mean absolute power and absolute knowledge.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-19-2007, 05:55 PM | #958 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*scans thread*
eh, I might have to get off of my lazy rocker and join in, because I disagree with Lief...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-19-2007, 07:18 PM | #959 | ||||
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People can act exactly as they please (ignoring sin and other such qualifications). They make decisions according to who they are, their own personalities and souls, while God makes those same decisions for them according to who he is. The will of God does not negate the will of man, for it does not confront it or overcome it, but rather works through it and with it. Mankind can still make decisions, can still learn and grow, and the fact that Love planned and uses those decisions too does not make them any less man's. It just makes them God's as well. Again, I reemphasize, man does exactly what man wants, without God forcing him to do anything he doesn't want to do, or changing man's personality against man's will. The fact that God wants and does the same as man, though for different reasons, doesn't negate man's freedom. Here's a tangent: Interestingly, according to Christian doctrine, sanctification is the process that makes us more and more like Christ, and that is the goal. To become Christ-like, to have him in one's heart doing his will through us, rather than us having our own way. This requires submission and humility before purity, which comes to fill God's believers who truly follow him because of his presence in their lives. So having Christ's personality, which is loving and full of every virtue, take over our own personalities, abolishing the impure in them and putting on the pure, is a central desire both for Christians who believe in Free Will and those who believe in predestination. We seek to put off the "old self" and put on the new, as Paul says in the Epistles. Becoming virtuous is the opposite of becoming sinful. While sin involves separation from God's will, and so might be seen in this sense as an opposite of predestination, it also enslaves so that people have no choice but to act in those destructive ways that they originally pursued. However, while complete surrender to God's will and submission to him might be seen as slavery, in fact, it brings greater and greater freedom for us to be personalities that do not bind. Sex, money, drugs, addictions, selfishness, the desire to stay alive, all forms of attachment have no power over us except God, who is love. Even family and friends come second to the love of God, and that love frees by allowing none of the things of this world to control us. Rather, they are under control, for while we on our own become enslaved by many things that shows up and try to gain control of us, God allows us to be free of all those things in him, and he protects us from the enslaving and destructive influences of the world. I only brought up this tangent to illustrate that we may need to define freedom and slavery differently from the way we normally do. The freedom to be ourselves rather than be God to the world is actually slavery, for it constrains us to be bound by many things around us in the world as a slave, and to have no power over those things. Isn't a man who feels a craving for money that must be satisfied, and so pursues money relentlessly, a slave of money? But isn't a man who can be rich one day and poor the next without being crushed by it, but who accepts both situations as God's will for him and continues to live his life unaffected by the change one who controls money, without it controlling him? He may have a good head for business and enjoy money while he has it, but he can be without it without despairing. Money is a tool in his hands, and he not a tool in its hands. God's love can create that freedom for people, and the more they are like him, the less they are bound by the things of the world. So "being ourselves", or being the old self which is separate from God, is slavery, whereas giving God mastery in one's life is freedom. And choice that God chooses for us means greater freedom on our part, whereas choice that we make independent of God is enslaved in various ways (our own ignorance, addiction, etc.). So our traditional, "I make my own decisions," persona may actually be the one who is enslaved, whereas the one who does only God's will is actually the most free. It's very ironic how the realities are reversed in the eyes of modern culture. Here this tangent ends. Quote:
A computer has no will of its own, and that's a key problem with your analogy. In the case we're discussing, people have their own wills and God has his own will. Both of their own wills, and people do exactly what they want without God forcing them to do anything. A computer is forced to do exactly what you want it to without having any personality, but God does not force, and people do what they want according to their personalities. Whatever anyone does is God's plan, but it also is humans' will, and the fact that God plans what humans will, and the fact that humans' will comes from him and is determined by him, does not mean that humans' will does not exist and does not also come from the people's own personalities and selves. God doesn't override people's personalities. He makes them and makes their personalities, and all their subsequent acts come because God willed them. However, people have the freedom to act according to who they are, and to behave in the ways they would naturally behave, according to their own personalities. Back to learning again, prepare yourself for me to be a bit longwinded, in order to make a supported claim about learning. But if you brought your daughter telling her things and she remembered them, you would call that learning, even though that's a similar route to that which the computer takes. She comes out of the environment of your home with certain knowledge that she "learned". Learning from life experience is just one more way of learning, a different process by which the information is digested. If you hired someone to act miserable over losing in gambling in front of your daughter, and she was taken in and learned something from it, that life experience still came as a result of your teaching- only it comes through a different method. Or you might hire someone to ask her for help, presenting a strong case for needing that help, and if she went and helped the person, she would learn. And if she failed to learn, you might teach her in another way. This would all be pretty wierd coming from a human, but my point is about the nature of learning. Even if your daughter learned through human events that were planned by you, it would still be her learning. In the same way, even if humans learn in ways that are planned by God, and even if God determined that the humans to learn in those ways (which does not mean forcing- I'm not talking about unnatural techniques), humans still learn. Through lessons of all kinds in life, people learn, and I assert that God teaches people through these lessons, and they receive the information he wants them to receive when he wants them to receive it, but the scale of his control over events doesn't negate the people's learning. No matter how constructed events are by some outside force, the pupil can still learn from them. And the control God has over the pupil's own personality is irrelevant in this case, since he isn't disrupting the person's personality in the education, but is letting it take its natural course. The person can be himself, even as God's plan is accomplished. Quote:
So it's better that evil exist for a limited time, because of what will result from it. I'm out of time- I'll try to talk more about this later. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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03-19-2007, 07:25 PM | #960 |
Elf Lord
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so many words ....
(by each and all) seems to me the debate here is not a penny for your words but a Million for a well thought out response, concisely put. best all, BB |
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