12-01-2006, 02:51 PM | #941 | |||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-01-2006, 03:11 PM | #942 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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See Hector you always have to look for a reason why we do what we do and not simply assume it must be god magic because its not right there on the surface. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-01-2006, 03:22 PM | #943 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-01-2006, 03:28 PM | #944 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-01-2006, 03:35 PM | #945 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-01-2006, 03:39 PM | #946 | |
Elf Lord
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When I take the time to write something to you, would you please do me the courtesy of reading it, in the future?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-01-2006 at 03:40 PM. |
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12-01-2006, 03:54 PM | #947 |
Elf Lord
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But I will make one other point in my response to this, and that is about religion. You would allow homosexual marriage because from your perspective, it's fine, and there's no evidence it's harmful. If you thought there was evidence that it was very harmful, like there is with drugs or pedophelia, you would take a position against it. You vote based on your beliefs, and your beliefs are based upon evidence.
I function the same way, and so do Christians. To us, the Bible is God's Word and God has spoken through it. There is a huge amount of evidence supporting the accuracy of the scripture and Jesus' claims to have been God. A leads to B leads to C leads to D. If evidence (there are many forms and varieties of this evidence, but it is immensely strong and generally only rejected because of other people's bias) shows that Jesus is God, and he says that the scripture is all true and God's Word, and the scripture indicates that homosexuality is harmful and dangerous, (like drugs or pedophelia) then that is a perfectly valid form of evidence. Jesus is God (on evidence), so scripture is true (on evidence), so homosexuality is harmful (like drugs), so we should vote against it being given marriage status. A leads to B leads to C leads to D. It's a well supported, evidence-based position. You just disagree with the evidence, and so you disagree with the conclusions. But religion is a perfectly valid reason for voting against homosexual marriage. It is NOT the only reason I would strongly oppose homosexual marriage, as you would be well aware if you'd remembered the content of the post on this thread I addressed to you, but it is a perfectly valid one, even left standing all by itself. Falagar, what do you think of this claim of mine about religion? Granted that it's evidence based rather than mere belief, doesn't it make sense to you that it be used (like any other evidence, if it's good evidence) as a valid reason to vote against homosexual marriage, if it says homosexuality is dangerous and harmful?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-01-2006, 04:04 PM | #948 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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I'm actually quite with Lief in thinking that it's silly when people say the Catholic Church (or the Muslims, or the Liberals, or the Republicans... you get the idea) are 'forcing' their views on anyone. That's free speech, unless they've tied you down to a chair and are forcing you to listen . The simple fact that you're not agreeing with Lief shows that he has in no way managed to force his views on you .
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12-01-2006, 04:35 PM | #949 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Also, as a general statement: Many christians accept homosexual marriage Many christians do not believe the scripture is all true So saying "to us christians" is a vast overgeneralization.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-01-2006, 04:46 PM | #950 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-01-2006, 05:07 PM | #951 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-01-2006, 06:41 PM | #952 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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Dear Lief,
I believe in your right to vote against homosexual rights in any way because of your religion. However, we have freedom of religion in this country and many other religions believe in your rights and homosexual rights and Muslim rights and Scientologist rights. Here I am citing Unitarianism. I think what I am asking is should we allow religions to battle over the rights of the whole country? (PS: This question is not just adressed to Lief, but I would like to hear his opinion.) |
12-01-2006, 07:22 PM | #953 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-01-2006, 09:19 PM | #954 | |
Elf Lord
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When I say yes to your question, it's for the following reason. This isn't religions battling it out, it's people. It's people who hold to different religions, and just battle issues out based upon their different opinions, values, and interpretation of the available evidence and what parts of it they listen to. People should be allowed to battle their disputes out legally, from their own different sets of values (which include religions), for otherwise we don't have a free, democratic government but an authoritarian secularist government.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-01-2006, 09:48 PM | #955 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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And while religions have a right to fight for their beliefs, so do other non-religious communities, such as the homosexual community.
So, we most likely agree that Homosexuals have as much of a right to fight for their beliefs as Christians, but how do we balance between the two? And also, how do we balance all different peoples wants and needs? |
12-01-2006, 10:28 PM | #956 | |||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-01-2006 at 10:30 PM. |
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12-01-2006, 11:15 PM | #957 | |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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If someone wants to be a Catholic, then they should realize they can't marry someone of the same sex. Kind of like how you need to enjoy camping and doing projects to become a boyscout. If you don't like doing projects or camping... maybe you shouldn't be a boyscout . No one is forcing me, or anyone else that I know of, to be a Catholic, it's a choice. It's my right to remain a faithful Catholic, for the time being, and it's also Lief's right to vote against homosexual marriage. The only thing 'banning' gays from marrying is all of the lazy people who wont get off their asses and go vote. As far as I've ever met, more people are for gay marriage than people who are against it.... but you know what? Almost without fail, the people who are against it are people who go and vote. The people who are for it seem much, much less likely to vote. |
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12-02-2006, 03:42 AM | #958 | |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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Anyway, I'm not worried about gay marriage failing in the United States. All it takes is one state to make it legal and it's legal everywhere. True, you have to get married in only one state, but it's better than nothing. And three cheers for everyone that has the guts to stand up and defend their opinion! That's why I admire true Christians so much. Their faith propells them into seeing everything through, whether it's the Crusades or helping the poor. YAY! |
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12-02-2006, 05:21 PM | #959 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Out of curiosity, Katt, how would you define a 'true Christian'?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-02-2006, 05:38 PM | #960 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Government must be free and secular.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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