Theology III

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

So, there you go.

If science is a problem for faith, out goes science.

Coffeehouse, I think you can retire the rational approach, now. You've seen where the card is palmed.

No, that's not it. It's exactly what I said; after seeing so many people on Entmoot posting so many studies that flagrantly contradict one another, I have very little trust in studies. Look, on this very issue, studies contradict each other:

A number of studies have claimed that patients who are being prayed for recover more quickly or more frequently. One such study, with a double-blind design and about 500 subjects per group, suggested that intercessory prayer by born again Christians had a statistically significant positive effect on a coronary care unit population.[10] Another such study was reported by Harris et al.[11] Critics claim Byrd's 1988 study was not fully double-blinded, and that in the Harris study, patients actually had a longer hospital stay in the prayer group, if one discounts the patients in both groups who left before prayers began,[12] although the Harris study did demonstrate the prayed for patients on average received lower course scores (indicating better recovery). One of the largest randomized, blind clinical trials was a remote retroactive intercessory prayer study conducted in Israel by Leibovici. This study used 3393 patient records from 1990-96, and blindly assigned some of these to an intercessory prayer group. The prayer group had shorter hospital stays and duration of fever.[13]

Some studies of prayer effectiveness have yielded null results.[14] A 2001 double-blind study of the Mayo Clinic found no significant difference in the recovery rates between people who were (unbeknownst to them) assigned to a group that prayed for them and those who were not.[15] Similarly, the MANTRA study conducted by Duke University found no differences in outcome of cardiac procedures as a result of prayer.[16] In another similar study published in the American Heart Journal in 2006[17], Christian intercessory prayer when reading a scripted prayer was found to have no effect on the recovery of heart surgery patients; however, the study found patients who had knowledge of receiving prayer had slightly higher instances of complications than those who did not know if they were being prayed for or those who did not receive prayer.[18]

And I've seen Lief and inked posting so many studies, and other people posting studies with results that contradicted theirs and each other, with studies both showing and denying everything that they can pertain to, that eventually, as far as I'm concerned, they all cancel each other out.

And don't give the name of Reason to these random selections and observations. Reason is something very, very different.

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

And Az, on top of that, that's the entire confusing part about the Christian God. If we were all the creatures of his work, wouldn't we know it deep down? Wouldn't that come as natural as breathing!?

Faith is.. faith. It is not necessarily reality. I don't object to individual faiths, but I object to one individual trying to replace his/her faith with the reality of another individual. That's my problem with religion. That's my problem with the Catholic Church. A monopoly on truth. Unhealthy!

whose to say deep down you don't know? Whose to say the reason you don't accept that deep down you believe God made you, is that your own experiences have helped to bury this truth, plus your ideas of truth are hiding the real truth. You see just because you don't accept something doesn't mean its not true, maybe for your perspective its not true, but saying its not true at all is helping to hide that feeling that we are all born with.

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Oh, studies, studies. There have also been studies that demonstrated the exact opposite. People can find studies to show absolutely anything; one half of studies contradict the other half. It would not surprise me if there were a study which infallibly demonstrated the moon to be made of cheese. They mean nothing.

this i got from a real study...i googled it


"Just look at it. The moon is a giant block of blue cheese. It's not moon rock, it's freaking cheese, man! Why do you think it has all those holes? Every time the astronauts launch their pods up there, they load the shuttle full of cheese. Then they sell all the cheese to Costco when they get back to town. How do you think they pay for all those pieces parts it takes to make the dang blasted space ships in the first place!?!!?!?"

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Azrael

but saying its not true at all is helping to hide that feeling that we are all born with.

How do you know people are born with a feeling of God?

[Azrael]

I can only give you my perspective and on that before i give it i have met people who have so many belief but none of them truly deny there is a God they just think that God does not like them or something along that lines. Well I was born without knowing my dad but i always felt someone besides my mother who watched and took care of me. I also was always a Christian and had that "child's faith" where at night I would talk to God like he was there with me knowing that He was and sometimes I could even fell like he was laughing with me. This is really hard to explain to non-believers but its one of those things where if you truly open your heart to listen to God you will here Him and even feel Him there with you, the only problem is people do not want to accept that someone loves them enough to be tortured and die so that we could be with Him. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time seeing that God is real and He loves us more then anything and just wants to be with us! People say that God wants us to give up our lives and worship Him, follow Him and have no choice in our lives, but that is not true! God just wants to be with us! When we sing to Him its like when you have a girl/boy friend and you sing to them because you love them. We give offering not because we have to, but because we want to! Its also like when you give flowers to your wife (probably not to the husband lol) its not because you have to but because you love her! Its the same with God He gives us flowers every spring and Hes the one who invented flowers for that matter...if I could I would always give every penny I made to God because thats how much I love Him. This is the best i can explain God to you and what He means to me. I hope this helped to show you that I don't follow a set of rules and beliefs I just follow my Dad like his little boy just wanting to make Him proud...and the cool part is everyday I make Him proud even if i fail and sin.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Alas..

1. It isn't clearly anything.. If it was, end of mystery!

It certainly is clearly the size and shape of a human being, shining with glorious light. The flowing robes also are visible . . . you're physically blind. Look:
http://indefenseofthecross.com/images/zeitoun6.jpg

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

2. It wasn't random luminescence. That's the entire point. And why exactly would this luminescence be similar to northern lights? Do you have any idea how remotely different those two phenomena are, effects of tectonic strain and particle collisions in the Earth's magnetosphere?
3. Lief, a million people did not report differently.. a million people might have witnessed this luminescence. The bottom-line is that this is in Cairo, city of millions.

A million people described what I did in my post. I've read some of these eyewitness testimonies- I doubt that you have. They also have been checked for consistency and have been found to be very consistent. None of them could be explained as tectonic luminescence.

You asked for God to open the heavens and show himself. The Virgin Mary has done that, internationally photographed and reported worldwide. She appeared to at least a million people of a variety of faiths, accompanied by stars forming circles around her, covered by a halo over her head, sometimes seen carrying the Christ-child in her arms, surrounded by doves and angels shining with light (also photographed, though the brilliance of the glow contrasted with the night sky doesn't make for clear pictures). White smoke smelling of incense rose from the ground, also in plain view and smelled and seen by thousands. You demanded this kind of spectacular show. Your wish is granted. God did it. A million people saw it, including the president of the country and the international press, and blind people and the sick were healed. You have your wish. Think about it.

More pictures, and some accounts:
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

[Coffeehouse]

I can't really comment on your personal faith, but I'll comment on this one.

Originally Posted by Azrael

This is really hard to explain to non-believers but its one of those things where if you truly open your heart to listen to God you will here Him

I used to believe in the Christian God. Until I realized I have as much reason to believe in that God as I have in believing in Zeus, or Allah, or Buddha.

In my view, no God. And even if he were there, he would be completely void of influence due to our free will. I'll say it again, it's not the fact that people privately believe in a God, or any other higher being, spirit, you name it, but it is the forceful imposition of such beliefs onto other people who do not share the belief that troubles me. It is especially troubling in religions with a rigid hierarchy like Catholicism and Islam. Less so with Hinduism and Buddhism, which is one of the reasons I believe Buddhism to be the model religion, peaceful and private.

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

It certainly is clearly the size and shape of a human being, shining with glorious light. The flowing robes also are visible . . . you're physically blind. Look:
http://indefenseofthecross.com/images/zeitoun6.jpg

dude we believe the same thing but that really looks like a satue more then a real person....but i guess it could be an angel but it looks more like human made then from God

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And you know this, by way of contrast with the dozens of apparitions you've seen hovering over churches?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Really? I didn't know that.

Shame, Lief! You should know better than to take an around the clock, constant, appearing-to-thousands-daily apparition seriously. God speaks in the still, small voice, not the roaring whirlwind or the thunderclap.

Sorry . I feel very, very ashamed of myself .

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

P. S. Steer clear of Medjugorje, or however it's spelt, as well.

Will do.

You spelled it correctly, by the way. Nice one .

[Lief Erikson]

Azrael, do you believe that saints from heaven sometimes appear to people on Earth?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well, if he believes in the Gospels, then one can only assume.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Azrael

dude we believe the same thing but that really looks like a satue more then a real person....but i guess it could be an angel but it looks more like human made then from God

It can't be a statue because statues don't hover in the sky or walk around, or raise their arms and bless people. Everyone who saw it agreed that it appeared to be and moved as a real person.

The Egyptian police did a careful investigation for any electronic or technological gadgets within a five mile radius of the church, carefully combing the area to find out if it could be a hoax, and they found nothing.

[Azrael]

ok so that picture is not real? knew it...plus how would someone have a camera waiting to take a picture of an angel that appeared just then...for the first time?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No. The apparition occurred regularly for over a year. That's why you have so many pictures, and even video footage (on youtube).

EDIT: Hooboy, three people replying at once! Hold on tight!

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Azrael, do you believe that saints from heaven sometimes appear to people on Earth?

hmmm thats very thought provoking..I'd figure that if God were to send one of His own down here for some reason it would be an angel not someone like paul, john, mary or who ever...honestly there is no difference between us and pual and them because we are all sinners and are all saved the same way..through Christ

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Azrael

ok so that picture is not real? knew it...plus how would someone have a camera waiting to take a picture of an angel that appeared just then...for the first time?

I think you're misunderstanding me. It is real. There are many of these pictures, because the apparition appeared for many months (I don't remember exactly how long). It appeared to tens of thousands of people, at least a million in all, and it occurred so often in that period of three years that the international press took cameras to the site and filmed and photographed it.

The efforts of the Egyptian police were an attempt to disprove it, but their attempt failed.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Well, if he believes in the Gospels, then one can only assume.

Mmm. I agree, but I didn't believe it either while I was Protestant, in spite of that . I viewed that as something just Jesus could do, something unique to Him. That's because of the small "t" tradition I was raised in .

*Sigh.* The loss of Maccabees does hurt Protestants.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

It certainly is clearly the size and shape of a human being, shining with glorious light. The flowing robes also are visible . . . you're physically blind. Look:
http://indefenseofthecross.com/images/zeitoun6.jpg

A million people described what I did in my post. I've read some of these eyewitness testimonies- I doubt that you have. They also have been checked for consistency and have been found to be very consistent. None of them could be explained as tectonic luminescence.

You asked for God to open the heavens and show himself. The Virgin Mary has done that, internationally photographed and reported worldwide. She appeared to at least a million people of a variety of faiths, accompanied by stars forming circles around her, covered by a halo over her head, sometimes seen carrying the Christ-child in her arms, surrounded by doves and angels shining with light (also photographed, though the brilliance of the glow contrasted with the night sky doesn't make for clear pictures). White smoke smelling of incense rose from the ground, also in plain view and smelled and seen by thousands. You demanded this kind of spectacular show. Your wish is granted. God did it. A million people saw it, including the president of the country and the international press, and blind people and the sick were healed. You have your wish. Think about it.

More pictures, and some accounts:
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

If a God, like the Christian God, wants to prove his existence for all to see (about time?), he should move Mount Everest to the Sahara Desert or cure AIDS. That science can not explain. Why not keep it simple for all to see?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Azrael

hmmm thats very thought provoking..I'd figure that if God were to send one of His own down here for some reason it would be an angel not someone like paul, john, mary or who ever...honestly there is no difference between us and pual and them because we are all sinners and are all saved the same way..through Christ

Oh, but look:

Six days later, three of them saw that glory. Jesus took Peter and the brothers, James and John, and led them up a high mountain. His appearance changed from the inside out, right before their eyes. Sunlight poured from his face. His clothes were filled with light. Then they realized that Moses and Elijah were also there in deep conversation with him.

Hmm...not Gabriel and Michael?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Azrael

hmmm thats very thought provoking..I'd figure that if God were to send one of His own down here for some reason it would be an angel not someone like paul, john, mary or who ever...honestly there is no difference between us and pual and them because we are all sinners and are all saved the same way..through Christ

Well, God sent Moses and Elijah to talk to Jesus at the Transfiguration, before he went to Jerusalem. So there certainly is scriptural precedent for him sending human saints.

Saints in heaven aren't just like saints on Earth, because they're sinless, living completely in heaven, and can see God. That's a big difference.

Also, remember that in the scripture it says we'll sit on Christ's throne and reign with him over the nations. That's what the saints in heaven do, so it's only natural they might sometimes want to visit part of their domain .