07-17-2011, 03:14 PM | #941 |
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Not I. I remember back in Toronto, me and my gays would be out on Statler's balcony, drinking heavily, smoking up a storm, and generally camping things up.
Seriously, though, a lot of gay people deal with internalized homophobia (God knows I had enough of it to work through!), which can often manifest in self-destructive behaviors.
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07-17-2011, 03:27 PM | #942 |
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I would be kind of dubious about that study. How does it determine who is "homophobic?" Self-report? Filling out a questionnaire? I just have real difficulty believing that repressed homosexual desires are a pre-requisite for homophobia. People have always been very good at hating the Other, and I really think the majority of homophobia is no more than that.
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07-17-2011, 03:37 PM | #943 |
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it was a questionnaire. i understand your doubts, and they're probably justified, at least to some extent. but i can believe that if you're brought up in an environment where homosexuality is seen as something wrong or even "evil" or sinful, you can have a strong counter-reaction if you notice such traits in yourself.
if there actually wasn't a difference, then the questionnaire probably measures something else - or their results were false. and, of course, their sample size was pretty small... but pretty interesting results anyhow, imo.
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11-20-2011, 07:20 PM | #944 |
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11-20-2011, 07:46 PM | #945 |
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To my mind, this kind of thing is an excellent example of how gay-themed concerns have deeply messed up priorities today. Everyone's energies are all poured into a slip of paper, while queer youth are starving on the street, with nowhere to lay their heads at night.
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11-23-2011, 04:37 AM | #946 |
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Why not both?
This seems reminiscent of the disagreement between Booker T. Washington and WEB DuBois in the early civil rights days, with Washington arguing that blacks should concentrate on economic and educational improvement, while Garvey and the NAACP fought to remove legal restraints, arguing that only with full legal equality could come social equality. A similar situation happened with (American) feminism; in the early 70s mainstream feminism was concentrated on equal rights, while others argued that issues such as daycare and healthcare were more important to working-class women. It would seem more attention needs to be paid to this- first I'd heard about it- yet I can see why people would more strongly support action on something which affects their own lives. The argument could also be made that once gays have equal rights, people will get used to it, become more tolerant, and ease up on the bigotry, hate, and rejection, thus treating the problem at the root, rather than trying to alleviate the results of homophobia.
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11-23-2011, 10:32 AM | #947 |
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Exactly. No one ever hears about issues like this, because they don't fit into the paradigm of the gay rights movement; it's not a legal battle, therefore it's ignored. It's hugely disappointing for a lot of reasons. In the first place, gay people are supposed to be a community; you would think, as such, we would look out for the weakest in our community. In the second place, gay people are supposed to be able to identify more strongly with the margins, but it turns out "the margins" is only the most bourgeois of spaces.
Both would be all right, if there were any sort of proportion between the need and the effort expended. But gay rights are all about marriage these days (you don't even hear about the fact that in many states gay people don't have employment protection); certainly, the rights afforded by that are valuable, but they pale next to the basic needs for food and shelter which our queer youth are suffering from. The latter is clearly far more important, but no interest in put into it. I posted this on a gay website I frequent, with some twenty thousand members and several hundred daily visitors, and exactly two people responded. At the same time, someone posted about Daniel Avila's idiotic column, which sparked a furor of responses. When basic needs are ignored, and people saying stupid things are profoundly relevant (when in fact, the comments in question had already been condemned and the person in question sacked about a week before), priorities are not as they should be. As regards the gay-rights-will-make-parents-stop-kicking-their-queer-youth-out shtick, look at the streets of Toronto. You cannot force solutions to social problems through legal responses; you may alleviate them a little, but all you really do is create an illusory veneer which hides them.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 11-23-2011 at 10:35 AM. |
11-23-2011, 11:11 AM | #948 | |
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Thanks for posting that GM.
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11-25-2011, 12:47 PM | #949 | |
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A more exact parallel would be the fight against segregated zoning. This is by definition a "bourgeois" issue; it applied only to that small minority of blacks who could afford to buy a house in a white neighborhoood.
Should they have been told "never mind about this, look at all the poor young black people on drugs in Harlem"? Or another parallel- a devout but concerned Muslim woman living in a country with Sharia law. She tells her feminist sisters that they should concentrate on providing shelters for women fleeing abusive marriages- surely a vital need- and stop worrying about changing the laws about arranged marriages or the inferior legal status of women. They might point out in turn that it is Islam itself, or at least the current intolerant version of it, that is causing the problem, and by refusing to acknowledge that, she brings up that old 60s saying: You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem. Gaffer, how about the very next line: Quote:
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11-25-2011, 06:40 PM | #950 |
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Pretty much, yep. I may not entirely agree with the "sexual practices" bit, but it's a heck of a lot better than the alternative, and an excess of affirmation is preferable to an excess of judgement. Also that some of the dollars that go to HRC and similar orgs would be better spent on issues like this.
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11-25-2011, 07:38 PM | #951 |
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Re: the next line? The further tragedy of fundamentalism.
For some people, love trumps fundamentalism, and change is possible. Others wear their tough-lovin absolutism like a badge of pride. Their moral gymnastics can twist things around so much as to make themselves feel OK about rejecting their own children. Psychopathic dogmatic. Tragedy abounds, in this issue. All down to this insane obsession with homosexuality that the clergy have for some reason. |
11-26-2011, 09:29 AM | #952 |
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Joe My God on the issue. The comment thread is interesting, as well.
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11-26-2011, 12:25 PM | #953 | |
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This is the article:
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11-26-2011, 03:37 PM | #954 | ||
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Some of the comments that jumped out at me:
Quote:
Quote:
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11-28-2011, 06:51 AM | #955 | |
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Nasty as
Quote:
Trouble is, in the US everyone is running scared of your insanely right-wing media. |
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12-07-2011, 12:27 PM | #956 |
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I can't remember, have we done "homophobes are closet gays"?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014 |
12-07-2011, 02:18 PM | #957 | |
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Quote:
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12-07-2011, 02:51 PM | #958 |
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I've seen that study before and I think it's a bit weird.
Now I do know a guy who's extremely homophobic and yes he is just about the gayest thing I've ever seen... married with kids but just unbelievably sassy and, dare I say it, a great dresser with some definite opinions in fashion and art. Who knows if he's really gay or just very in touch with what we consider feminine traits, but it is a bit suspicious. I don't care that much... he's made his choices in life and that's his business. It bothers me when I hear other people discussing him and "accusing" him of being gay and saying he should just come out. It's incredibly rude. I think there are a lot of gay men with internalized or externalized homophobia. I've done my best to mask all of my effeminate traits (brought on by living with my sisters and mom my whole life) and these days I'll usually lie unless I get really comfortable with someone. If someone asks, and they always do in music choruses, "so are you gay or straight?" I will claim to be straight. These days they believe me, although in the past no one ever did. So it makes a lot of sense to me that there are men out there who are gay that hate themselves, or other gay people, for it... but I'm not sure that it's fair to say that men who are homophobic are secretly lusting for a little man-on-man action. That seems like a very "pointed" study, and I have to agree there are some very weird things about it... like why homophobic men would get into a study about homophobia in the first place and then watch erotic material. Weird. I suspect it was a study intended to find the thing it found, and the results may not be entirely accurate. |
12-07-2011, 03:42 PM | #959 |
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I agree. One of the most basic facts about human nature is that we don't like people who are different from us. I know a couple people whom I strongly suspect to be self-loathers, and one or two whom I know are, but I'm pretty solidly convinced that general hatred of the Other is the reason for the great majority of homophobes. Further, though I'm out, many of the gay people I know are closeted, and even the closet cases will usually take on homophobia (and in fact the most homophobic ones I know are more-or-less out), even if they don't identify the precise source of their concern. When people try to say that homophobes are, as a rule, secretly gay, I roll my eyes. Even (to take an example from current events) Marcus Bachmann may be fun to joke about, but when you start trying to seriously argue the point, I tune out.
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12-07-2011, 07:51 PM | #960 |
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Gwai, how would you describe a homophobe?
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