03-23-2004, 05:25 PM | #941 | |
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03-27-2004, 02:01 PM | #942 | |
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1)He is going into Jerusalem; He looks around, but it's late so he leaves. 2) Ditto 3)He overturned the tables of the money-changers 4)approaching Passover 5)it was not the season for figs 6)Don't know; how do these bear on the issue? asking politely Yeah, a book that bears on someone claiming to be God is complex- agree totally.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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03-27-2004, 02:34 PM | #943 | |
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As for the veracity of the Gospels, and their agreement with prophecy:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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03-27-2004, 07:34 PM | #944 |
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GrayMouser--
“And Jesus sat on them” refers to him sitting on the cloaks, not the two animals. We know from Mark 11:2 and Luke 19:30 that he rode the colt. Typically, a mother donkey followed her offspring closely. Matthew is the only Gospel that mentions two animals, the others mention only one. As for the fig tree story, this is borrowed from “The New Bible Commentary: Revised”, edited by D. Guthrie: “In Mark, this story is in two parts…The miracle has aroused criticism from modern scholars on two grounds: first, the unreasonableness of our Lord’s action in looking for figs at Passover time; secondly, that such an action associated with His own hunger is both unlikely and unworthy of Him. The usual explanation is to say that a parable like that of the fig tree in Lk. 13:6-9 has reappeared in factual form. As to the first of the two objections, the probable explanation is that the fig tree in Palestine bears an early crop of immature fruit, like green knobs, which appears before the leaves. Their absence was clear indication of the barrenness of the tree. As to the second objection, we may note that this was Christ’s only miracle of judgment, performed ‘in mercy to man, on an inanimate object, to teach a moral lesson’. The fig tree was a symbol of the Jewish nation, which abounded in the leaves of religious profession but was barren of the fruits of righteousness. Its cursing was prophetic of the fate of the Jewish authorities who were now about to reject their Messiah.” Any questions?
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03-27-2004, 09:16 PM | #945 | |||
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If I see you drop off your child to a big building with other kids and some adults that call them into line and take them into rooms and sit them down at desks and talk to them, and I ask you why you drop off your kid there, you would say: "R*an, that's called a school, and those adults are called teachers, and their job is to educate children. I love my child and I want him to have good education so he can know about the world and expand his horizons and learn good information and analytical skills." (and then I hope you'd say "wanna go get a cup of tea?" ) You'd explain your actions with identification, purpose (to educate your child) and motivation (because you love your child and want the best for them). And that's what I intend to do with this action of Jesus. Do you see now why I asked #6? (ps - thanks for the "asking politely" note ) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-27-2004 at 09:22 PM. |
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03-27-2004, 09:19 PM | #946 |
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Good info, Mercutio! I'd like to add onto it when I get a bit more time, because I think there's a lot more behind it than the facts, altho the facts are critically important.
Unless, that is, you're satisfied with Mercutio's answer, GrayMouser. Shall I expand on it, or is Mercutio's answer enough for you?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-27-2004, 09:32 PM | #947 | |
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ps - GM, I don't see any problem with your donkey example I think one writer mentioned just the one donkey (the colt) that Jesus rode on, and two others mentioned the fact that it was a mother with her colt, and Jesus rode on the colt. The passage in Zech. I see as the common style of Hebrew poetry - the restatement in slightly different words for emphasis - that you see ALL OVER the Psalms and Proverbs and the Prophets, and interestingly, is a form of poetry that is COMPLETELY translatable into ALL languages! IOW, the animal was a colt, and also a donkey. Read thru Psalms and Proverbs, where that style is the rule and not the exception, and you'll see what I mean.
The passages in the NT also illustrate the simple motives that the writers of the Gospels had - to tell what happened. Some put in more details than others - big deal. As Luke says, Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-27-2004 at 09:33 PM. |
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03-29-2004, 11:04 AM | #948 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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03-29-2004, 05:19 PM | #949 | ||
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Was your original question in the spirit of the question of the chief priests and scribes and elders at the end of that very same chapter (Mark 11), or did you really ask the question because you didn't understand it and wanted to learn something if there was indeed a good answer? Here's what I'm talking about: Quote:
If I am right about your motive, then I would like to caution you that not seeking the truth is a dangerous thing ... And I'm not even saying that Christianity is the truth (altho I think it is) - I mean that it just seems like you asked the question more to try to throw out a stumbling block than to get an answer ... I don't know, I guess it's just that if I truly wondered about something and got a partial explanation and someone said they had more info, I think I would ask for it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-29-2004, 06:30 PM | #950 |
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Also:
Me : "5. what are some things about fig tree leafing/fruiting patterns that would have been common knowledge to the people of that time; " You : "5)it was not the season for figs" Your answer was partially correct - it was not the season for figs (as the writer notes), but when fig trees are in leaf, like THIS ONE was, then there SHOULD be fruit, and that would be common knowledge. The early fruit was very starchy and used for food by the poor, acc'd to one ref. I have. (and the leaves could be seen from far off, which is why it was REASONABLE for Jesus to expect fruit, altho not the mature fruit.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-30-2004, 01:48 AM | #951 |
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GrayMouser - this has been bugging me all day - I'm very sorry if I misinterpreted your sentence - I'm rather used to being on the defensive, and maybe I misunderstood you - but the way you worded it ("a wonderful bit of hermeneutics" as opposed to "oh, that makes sense now!"), and the way you quoted MY post and not Mer's (why?) made me think it was sarcastic ... was it? I'd be glad to be completely wrong in my assessment of your response.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-31-2004, 11:34 AM | #952 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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03-31-2004, 11:45 AM | #953 | |
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It looks like you're not only "straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel", but manufacturing a camel to swallow Can you really get hung up over the non-recording of a detail that is NOT contradictory in any way, and yet, as Jesus said, ignore the weightier details, which are heart issues? There is NO contradiction here, there is an omission which is rather incomprehensible to me that anyone could get stuck on.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-31-2004 at 11:47 AM. |
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03-31-2004, 11:52 AM | #954 | |
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And it says, again very clearly, that there were no figs on it, not because it was barren, not because Jesus was expecting immature fruit, but "it was not the season for figs". This is what I mean by it being an example of hermeneutics. The people who are explaining this text are doing so based on their prior assumptions as to what Jesus is like- the point then becomes how to find an explanation that fits those assumptions, rather than relying - as claimed- on the Gospels for the evidence.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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03-31-2004, 12:14 PM | #955 |
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And I'll say again that Jesus EXPECTED there to be fruit on the tree BECAUSE of the VISUAL EVIDENCE of the leaves on the tree - which means that there SHOULD have been fruit on it, as any rational person living in that area would know.
I wish I had time to answer the other two points - I have to leave to take the kids to school now. I have answers - are you interested in hearing them, or do you prefer to not hear them? and what I mean about the "weightier details" is that the Christian worldview has an intellectual answer to things like pain; atheism does NOT. There are MANY weightier issues like this - atheism does NOT have satisfactory intellectual answers. I wish you could be on more often, because I'd like to take you up on these points. And as far as "prior assumptions" - no, it's not unbased assumptions, it's recorded statements about "what Jesus is like" - which IS relying on evidence. But apparently you're not interested in hearing these things - that was the point of several of my 6 points - the recorded evidence of character issues and prior history that weigh on the whole story. NOT a "let's make Jesus be like this so we can explain a story" thing. So do you think the bystanders were naked, or can you get over the colt issue now? It is NOT contradictory at ALL, except to a heart that wants it to be so. It is a simple case of one gospel writer, who knew the OT well (as is evidenced by how often he used it), recording an ADDITIONAL detail - I'm sure he thought it was pretty cool.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-31-2004 at 12:15 PM. |
03-31-2004, 12:16 PM | #956 |
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and if you're going to throw out Christianity on a detail like this, where you can't even prove that there WASN'T a colt following along (which is a natural and reasonable thing) ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-31-2004, 12:40 PM | #957 | ||
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Everything else- the hypothetical unripened figs, stated motives (the only motive stated is that Jesus was hungry), similar recorded cases, ponderings on related parables- is speculation, extrapolation and interpretation i.e. hermeneutics.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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03-31-2004, 12:54 PM | #958 | ||
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And if someone wrote down a story of your life, and in one incident, it says you take your kids to school, must the reader assume that your only motive is to take them to school and that you have NO underlying reason for it? Or is it reasonable to take your statements at other times that are related to the issue ("I would like for my kids to be educated because I love them and I think it's good for them") and say that even though in THAT particular story you didn't say your motive, that since you said it elsewhere, that we now have your motive? Sorry that wasn't written well, I hope you understood it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-31-2004 at 12:58 PM. |
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03-31-2004, 04:03 PM | #959 |
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ps - I think that hermeneutics can definitely go too far - and my favorite commentary says what Mercutio says, but then adds a caution that one can go too far in this area, and notes that the only thing Jesus spoke about when questioned on that incident was the issue of faith.
pps - and again, the recorded FACTS are that the tree had leaves, and the botanical FACTS are that this means there should have been fruit.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-02-2004, 12:34 PM | #960 | ||
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And note Matthew and Mark disagree over the details of the story Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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