02-03-2006, 03:52 PM | #941 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-03-2006 at 03:59 PM. |
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02-03-2006, 05:12 PM | #942 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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My point was this: is it logical to you to think that a perfectly holy being would rightly think that ALL sin should be punished? Also, do you see the difficulty of WHERE to "draw the line" if you're saying that some sin is OK as long as a person does more good? For example, if a person is right at the balance point in his life and he has done exactly as much good as evil, and then lies once more as he dies, then essentially he will be sent to hell for one lie. And an interesting point - those who think that a line should be drawn somewhere, in my experience, usually put themselves on the GOOD side of that line...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-03-2006, 09:34 PM | #943 | |||
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And no, I don't think all sins should be punished. Next question, I assume, will be on which sins one should be punished and on which one shouldn't. I would leave that to God; and I'm sure he has a better way to decide than by the faith one has to Jesus. Quote:
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02-03-2006, 09:45 PM | #944 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-03-2006, 10:09 PM | #945 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-04-2006 at 02:16 AM. |
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02-04-2006, 01:21 PM | #946 | |
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Sorry, but this was a non-sound-bite reference.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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02-04-2006, 01:23 PM | #947 |
of the House of Fëanor
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O.K. - thanx 4 explaining for me, though!
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02-04-2006, 01:40 PM | #948 |
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RtB,
You know, or should know from the rabbinic literature, that God didn't make them perfect from the beginning because to be in time is to be subject to change. Persons do not attain maturity or perfection apart from pursuing it (however faultily) or desiring it (however minsculely). To be a person in the image of God means to exercise (in the degree appropriate to humanity) the will. Choice to obedience or disobedience is THE issue. Unfortunately, the serpent failed to notify Eve of the inability of humanity to know the not good as potentiality only due to the constraints of the amphibious nature of humanity (partly spirit, partly material). And Eve, being distracted by the sensuous nature of the object of desire (the fruit) and the desire to "be as God knowing good and evil" did not think the issue through, nor discuss it with Adam. Taking the figures allegorically (and I am not saying this is the only way they may be taken, historically works well for me; in fact, the usage of the characters works well on at least as many levels as they do in Dante - see here http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...ighlight=Dante item #44), we can see that the mother of all sin is desire to be as God knowing good and evil, in Eve's case captured by the thought and the appealingness of the fruit as a concrete object to be desired apart from the rule. We can all reflect on Adam's even more truncated thought process since he had more information, but obviously would not refuse Eve (sexual politics, girls? or merely male stupidity? or - more likely - both? ) Had obedience been chosen, the knowledge would have been obtained at the proper time and in the proper mode to the nature of humanity, and humanity would have grown towards a more perfect state by that process. Perfection achieved without effort is not what God had in mind. Think of the analogy of a parent desiring a child to learn to walk.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-04-2006, 05:11 PM | #949 | |||
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(So basically: IMO the outcome of the process to reach perfection is unnecessary, as God can do anything he would like to do) (And the link doesn't work ) |
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02-04-2006, 06:59 PM | #950 | |||
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There's just no comparison between the two types of experience, I think. Correct me if you think I'm wrong. And what's the point of God just implanting memories or feelings in people so that they feel as if they'd gone through all that past relationship, when the people can really go through the relationship? The difference is between a game and the real thing.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-04-2006, 07:23 PM | #951 | ||
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02-06-2006, 03:48 PM | #952 | |||
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It may be that the same thing is true with people. If someone exists and then ceases to exist, is it as though the person never happened? I don't know. It was with my dream, so I'm just theorizing. If this is the case, does the eternal death of billions make a difference? Tough to say. Perhaps they are like the bad dream that is here and then gone. About your idea of God putting memories into people's heads: First of all, the memories aren't real. They may feel real, we may feel more mature, but none of it actually happened. We would be built on fakeness. Secondly, I don't much like the idea of God being a liar. Would you want to have a good life built on lies? Not very worthwhile to me. Jesus said that all liars will be thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. Lying is not part of God's nature, IMO, and should not be. Now if God were not a liar and told you what you'd experienced wasn't real, how would that make you feel? How would you feel if someone came and told you all the suffering you've experienced and all the lessons you've learned for it, any courage you've shown in the face of wrongdoing and any act of nobility you've made, all never happened? It sure would make me feel . . . ah, a little limp, shall we say. It is to me as though it happened, but it didn't happen. There's little point there, IMO.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-06-2006, 05:32 PM | #953 | |||
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Another reason why I don't buy your "apparent free will" theory ... I think God gives human beings a great amount of free will. God's purposes will be accomplished, and He can intervene at times, but on the whole, I think He gives us a huge amount of free will and the ability to choose our courses, because otherwise justice would be meaningless, and rewards empty. The only part of God's will that I see "thwarted" is this: in BOTH the Old and New Testament, it says that God desires that NO ONE should perish - that ALL should come to fulness of joy in knowing Him. Yet ... this desire of God is sometimes "thwarted" by man's free will choice, for the scriptures are also clear that some DO perish by their own actions, their own choices. That's what's so amazing, to me, about God's decision to create people. Here is God, self-existant in the Trinity, in perfect love and fellowship, knowing that to create humans will break His heart with love, but also with sorrow - and He does it. Fairy tales often convey great truths, because they're wrapped in different coverings, as JRR Tolkien knew well (and wrote an essay about). One of my favorite fairy tales contains a little scene between a queen and a witch. This queen could not conceive a child, so obviously the thing to do is consult the local witch She goes to visit the witch - there's a funny picture of a fringe of snakes hanging from their tales over the doorway, trying their best to bow snakily while upside down! Anyway, the queen says she wants a child. The witch says, "She'll bring you great sorrow." The queen answers, "Greater joy." I think that's why God created. Just like His Son, years later, "... endured the cross for the joy set before Him...", I think God thinks although there is sorrow, there is greater joy. And there is no real love, unless there is real free will. You well know of God's analogy of the bride and groom. You also know that He abides in us and we in Him. These things cannot be true of an author and the characters he writes. The author/character analogy may be good for some situations, but IMO, it fails in the most important one - the relational aspect. Read through the OT - Jeremiah, Lamentations, etc. - this is NOT the picture of an author mourning and lamenting over his written characters. Read the NT and see where Jesus weeps - this is NOT the picture of an author mourning and lamenting over his written characters. This is the picture of a being with deep, deep love for fellow beings - not equal, for how can a created beings ever equal their creator? - but fellow beings, like Him and in His image - capable of decisions, capable of relationship. God is a relational God - before the universe was even created, He was in relationship in the Trinity. I think Lewis expresses it well - at the end, there will be two paths. Those who love God will say, "Thy will be done," and to those who hate and willfully deny Him, God will say, "Your will be done." And since their will is to flee from God, the only place where that is possible is Hell. Heaven is a real place, with real characteristics, the most important being that God lives there and His glory and splendor and power are fully revealed, shining for all to see. To those that love Him, any place where God is is heaven; for those that hate him, anyplace that God is is Hell, anyway. Heaven is not heaven for those that hate its King. Hell is the only alternative - and it is CHOSEN, as is Heaven.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-06-2006, 06:33 PM | #954 | |||
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I'll respond to the rest of your post from home. Be back soon.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-06-2006, 07:58 PM | #955 | |||
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I think God is an artist/creator, as is clear from his creation. I think He made us in His image, also as artists/creators. He gives paper and paint and brushes to one, clay to another, pencil and paper to another, marble to another (IOW He gives us different things to work with), but He also says, "Make something!" and stands back to watch. And there is judgement for our bad choices, and praise for our good choices. As I said, if he writes all of our lines ahead of time (versus just knowing what the lines will be but not forcing them), judgement is meaningless and praise is worthless, IMHO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-06-2006 at 08:01 PM. |
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02-06-2006, 08:01 PM | #956 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-06-2006, 08:20 PM | #957 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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In the scripture, Jesus said the Pharisees go across the sea to win a convert and then "make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." Even if the Pharisees made the person a son of hell, the person is still a son of hell and deserving of destruction. The scripture also talks about the human who turns someone else to evil deserving of terrible judgment, yet this would not apply to God, for God is far higher than humans and his will is righteous. The fact that God chose genocide in Canaan does not mean we're in the position to decide others are deserving of genocide. Some rights God has that we do not, and what would be evil if we did it is righteousness in God's hands. Quote:
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In the same way, God may will for every soul's personality to choose him, but he plans that they don't. So I believe God's will can be thwarted by our freedom, but his plan cannot. Quote:
"The only part of God's will that I see 'thwarted' is this: in BOTH the Old and New Testament, it says that God desires that NO ONE should perish - that ALL should come to fulness of joy in knowing Him. Yet ... this desire of God is sometimes 'thwarted' by man's free will choice, for the scriptures are also clear that some DO perish by their own actions, their own choices." However, I would just differentiate between God's will and his plan, and there is evidence in the Bible that this is the case. Another example would be Judas, the one who according to Jesus was "doomed to destruction." However, God's will was that no one should perish. It is clear from the Bible that he loved Judas- he took the man as a close personal companion, friend and disciple, and I think the Bible also talks about him handing over divine power to Judas to use on behalf of the Israelites. I think he did that for all the disciples, including Judas, the "one doomed to destruction." Don't you think he also loved the pharoah of Egypt, the one he planned for destruction in order to reveal his glory, the one who's heart God hardened? God loves ALL people and wills that NONE of them be destroyed. However, he doomed Judas and the pharoah, and himself, to destruction. God's will was thwarted in this way, while at the same time, his plan was not and cannot be thwarted. Quote:
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I have another point to make on this. Two more, actually, but I'll requote you before posting the second. We already believe that we do nothing good that does not come from God. When God enters into us, he transforms us inside. You told me earlier that you pray to God that he will change you so that you love people as he loves them. God, living in us, does good things through us and changes us to make us more like him, so that he can do this. The more and more we surrender our lives to him and let him transform us, the more good we are. However, the less and less will we have that is distinct from God. Will that is not God's will, actually, is always wrong. Anything we will that is different from God's will is sin. Will that is in accord with God's will is righteousness. How does this tie in with free will? If we can only be right when we do what God would have us do, and one would suppose the complete rightness is the complete accord with and surrender to God's will, how are we free, in your view? Aren't we marching steadily towards slavery as we develop our relationship with God, rather than marching into higher and higher freedom? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-06-2006 at 08:22 PM. |
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02-07-2006, 12:50 PM | #958 | |||||||
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"Whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world", every person is "an entire world" in other words. It should matter to the poeple surviving, and probably God if he's truly good and moral. The idea of mass murder doesn't seem too good to me. And only because of one's beliefs, no less. Quote:
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Second.. I don't think it would make me feel very different, if from this moment on we'd start to live our lives. I don't really see the problem, except from a religious point of view. But if you can deal with 'God murders' surely you can explain his lies as well. |
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02-07-2006, 12:54 PM | #959 | |
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02-07-2006, 05:04 PM | #960 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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No, I definitely don't think it's right to kill billions!!!!
I was trying to get at something, but my brain is fuzzy now - I'll have to try later ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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