Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

I was kind of surprised about smoking.

Not I. I remember back in Toronto, me and my gays would be out on Statler's balcony, drinking heavily, smoking up a storm, and generally camping things up.

Seriously, though, a lot of gay people deal with internalized homophobia (God knows I had enough of it to work through!), which can often manifest in self-destructive behaviors.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I would be kind of dubious about that study. How does it determine who is "homophobic?" Self-report? Filling out a questionnaire? I just have real difficulty believing that repressed homosexual desires are a pre-requisite for homophobia. People have always been very good at hating the Other, and I really think the majority of homophobia is no more than that.

[Nerdanel]

it was a questionnaire. i understand your doubts, and they're probably justified, at least to some extent. but i can believe that if you're brought up in an environment where homosexuality is seen as something wrong or even "evil" or sinful, you can have a strong counter-reaction if you notice such traits in yourself.

if there actually wasn't a difference, then the questionnaire probably measures something else - or their results were false. and, of course, their sample size was pretty small... but pretty interesting results anyhow, imo.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Young, Gay, and Homeless

[Gwaimir Windgem]

To my mind, this kind of thing is an excellent example of how gay-themed concerns have deeply messed up priorities today. Everyone's energies are all poured into a slip of paper, while queer youth are starving on the street, with nowhere to lay their heads at night.

[GrayMouser]

Why not both?
This seems reminiscent of the disagreement between Booker T. Washington and WEB DuBois in the early civil rights days, with Washington arguing that blacks should concentrate on economic and educational improvement, while Garvey and the NAACP fought to remove legal restraints, arguing that only with full legal equality could come social equality.

A similar situation happened with (American) feminism; in the early 70s mainstream feminism was concentrated on equal rights, while others argued that issues such as daycare and healthcare were more important to working-class women.

It would seem more attention needs to be paid to this- first I'd heard about it- yet I can see why people would more strongly support action on something which affects their own lives.

The argument could also be made that once gays have equal rights, people will get used to it, become more tolerant, and ease up on the bigotry, hate, and rejection, thus treating the problem at the root, rather than trying to alleviate the results of homophobia.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Exactly. No one ever hears about issues like this, because they don't fit into the paradigm of the gay rights movement; it's not a legal battle, therefore it's ignored. It's hugely disappointing for a lot of reasons. In the first place, gay people are supposed to be a community; you would think, as such, we would look out for the weakest in our community. In the second place, gay people are supposed to be able to identify more strongly with the margins, but it turns out "the margins" is only the most bourgeois of spaces.

Both would be all right, if there were any sort of proportion between the need and the effort expended. But gay rights are all about marriage these days (you don't even hear about the fact that in many states gay people don't have employment protection); certainly, the rights afforded by that are valuable, but they pale next to the basic needs for food and shelter which our queer youth are suffering from. The latter is clearly far more important, but no interest in put into it. I posted this on a gay website I frequent, with some twenty thousand members and several hundred daily visitors, and exactly two people responded. At the same time, someone posted about Daniel Avila's idiotic column, which sparked a furor of responses. When basic needs are ignored, and people saying stupid things are profoundly relevant (when in fact, the comments in question had already been condemned and the person in question sacked about a week before), priorities are not as they should be.

As regards the gay-rights-will-make-parents-stop-kicking-their-queer-youth-out shtick, look at the streets of Toronto. You cannot force solutions to social problems through legal responses; you may alleviate them a little, but all you really do is create an illusory veneer which hides them.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for posting that GM.

there are so many parents who can't be parents to their gay kids

[GrayMouser]

A more exact parallel would be the fight against segregated zoning. This is by definition a "bourgeois" issue; it applied only to that small minority of blacks who could afford to buy a house in a white neighborhoood.

Should they have been told "never mind about this, look at all the poor young black people on drugs in Harlem"?

Or another parallel- a devout but concerned Muslim woman living in a country with Sharia law. She tells her feminist sisters that they should concentrate on providing shelters for women fleeing abusive marriages- surely a vital need- and stop worrying about changing the laws about arranged marriages or the inferior legal status of women.

They might point out in turn that it is Islam itself, or at least the current intolerant version of it, that is causing the problem, and by refusing to acknowledge that, she brings up that old 60s saying: You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem.

Gaffer, how about the very next line:

They can't cope, they can't deal with it, their religion is in conflict with the reality of their kids' lives, and these kids are getting thrown away

So, Gwai, what would you suggest? Gay people organising shelters for young LGBTs, helping them adjust, telling them there is nothing wrong with them or their sexual practices, and that the problem is with the bigots that can't accept that? You down with that?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

So, Gwai, what would you suggest? Gay people organising shelters for young LGBTs, helping them adjust, telling them there is nothing wrong with them or their sexual practices, and that the problem is with the bigots that can't accept that? You down with that?

Pretty much, yep. I may not entirely agree with the "sexual practices" bit, but it's a heck of a lot better than the alternative, and an excess of affirmation is preferable to an excess of judgement. Also that some of the dollars that go to HRC and similar orgs would be better spent on issues like this.

[The Gaffer]

Re: the next line? The further tragedy of fundamentalism.

For some people, love trumps fundamentalism, and change is possible.

Others wear their tough-lovin absolutism like a badge of pride. Their moral gymnastics can twist things around so much as to make themselves feel OK about rejecting their own children.

Psychopathic dogmatic.

Tragedy abounds, in this issue. All down to this insane obsession with homosexuality that the clergy have for some reason.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Joe My God on the issue. The comment thread is interesting, as well.

[Tessar]

This is the article:

The holiday season frightens me. It is the time of year our homeless kids are most likely to attempt suicide. Kids who have been cast out of their homes suffer badly during a season that celebrates and idealizes family togetherness.

Yesterday I met with a group of kids at our drop-in center in Chelsea. They were all out in the cold at night, waiting for beds to open up in our shelters. One boy, who is 16 years old, told me how everything went bad for him when he was eleven. His father demanded to know if he was gay and when the boy was honest, his father refused to speak to him for three years. His mother tells him that he is a mistake and that she wishes she never had him. He has been running away repeatedly since then. There is nothing to celebrate at his home. I had a hard time sleeping last night, wondering what he had suffered.

What a sick, toxic force homophobia is in our society, destroying homes, making parents turn on their own children. Tens of thousands of teens in our country have been forced out of their homes. An LGBT teen is eight times more likely to suffer homelessness than a straight teen. The religious and political leaders who promote homophobia are causing terrible human suffering. They lie when they say they are promoting family values.

The waiting list for our shelter beds skyrocketed in the last year. More than half the kids coming to us for help are from out of state. Most are from the red states. Even though we recently opened a new 20-bed shelter, we now have a waiting list of over 200 kids. In New York City there are only 250 youth shelter beds for a population of 3,800 kids, 40% of whom are LGBT.

I am haunted by the perception that these kids are paying the price for our victories. I believe that when there is a lot of conflict about gay rights, parents who give credence to homophobic religious and political leaders take it out on their LGBT kids. It is no coincidence that our waiting list grew more than ever before in a year that saw the overturning of Don't Ask Don't Tell, and the achievement of Marriage Equality in New York.

The fight for LGBT equality for adults is often a matter of changing laws. But for these kids, who have been made destitute by homophobia, it is a fight for resources. A gay teen may not be able to depend on their parent's love, but they should be able to depend on our community to protect them. We cannot allow them to be left out in the streets.We need to marshall our resources to provide for them, and demand that our tax dollars help to create a safety net for them.

At the Ali Forney Center we are doing our best to protect the kids. We now house 77 every night in eight different shelter and longer-term housing sites. We serve hundreds more daily in our two drop-in centers. We work especially hard during the holiday season to create a warm and joyful environment for the kids. We have Thanksgiving and Christmas feasts at all of our housing sites and drop-in centers. We bring together many people to help us with all the food and withassembling abundant presents for all the hundreds of kids. Honestly, making the kids feel as happy and loved as possible during this season can be a matter of life and death.

I am deeply grateful to the community of people surrounding JMG for your generosity to the Ali Forney Center. Over the past few years the appeals Joe has invited me to write have generated over $65K. On this Thanksgiving day, I give my thanks to all of you who have been so kind and caring.

I hope that you will consider continuing to support our work. Donations can be made online or can be mailed to:

Ali Forney Center
224 West 35th Street, Suite 1102
New York, NY 10001

Thank you!

Carl Siciliano
Executive Director
Ali Forney Center

NOTE FROM JOE: The Ali Forney Center rates highly per the Best Practices guidelines of Charity Navigator, which judges non-profits on how efficiently they handle their funding. Donations are tax-deductible.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Some of the comments that jumped out at me:

I get anry when I read about 250 shelter beds for a homeless youth population of 3800.* If there were 3500 homeless cocker spaniels in NYC, there would be an outpouring of donations and political pressure to care for the dogs.* With homeless kids, not so much.

What I do not understand is why our national organizations do not make the plight of homeless gay and lesbian youth more of a priority.* They could find*shelters in states that have them so that we could help support them.* This very worthy*shelter is one place in one city in one state.* There have to be more but trying to find them is like pulling hens' teeth.* I think that if the HRC cannot help with homeless gay and lesbian youth, they are not going to be receiving any more money from me.* I have always been sort of galled at the HRC dress up dinners; thinking that money could be used in far better ways.* This is certainly one. These kids are a very real*sign of true need in our community.* We, as their elders, must do more to take care of them since their parents have failed them.*I hope those parents receive the same treatment as they gave their LGBT children when they expect to get into their idea of heaven.

[The Gaffer]

Nasty as

An LGBT teen is eight times more likely to suffer homelessness than a straight teen. The religious and political leaders who promote homophobia are causing terrible human suffering. They lie when they say they are promoting family values.

Maybe the way forward is for the gay community to lead the way. There are plenty of successful gay people - get them to hammer this issue and bung their donations to the organisations that provide this support.

Trouble is, in the US everyone is running scared of your insanely right-wing media.

[The Gaffer]

I can't remember, have we done "homophobes are closet gays"?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I can't remember, have we done "homophobes are closet gays"?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

Would be so awsome if its really true. My question is how do they get the homophobes to agree to have an electrode ring wrapped around their willy and why dont they rip it off in a panic when they feel themselves going hard over man on man stuff?

[Tessar]

I've seen that study before and I think it's a bit weird.

Now I do know a guy who's extremely homophobic and yes he is just about the gayest thing I've ever seen... married with kids but just unbelievably sassy and, dare I say it, a great dresser with some definite opinions in fashion and art. Who knows if he's really gay or just very in touch with what we consider feminine traits, but it is a bit suspicious. I don't care that much... he's made his choices in life and that's his business. It bothers me when I hear other people discussing him and "accusing" him of being gay and saying he should just come out. It's incredibly rude.

I think there are a lot of gay men with internalized or externalized homophobia. I've done my best to mask all of my effeminate traits (brought on by living with my sisters and mom my whole life) and these days I'll usually lie unless I get really comfortable with someone. If someone asks, and they always do in music choruses, "so are you gay or straight?" I will claim to be straight. These days they believe me, although in the past no one ever did.

So it makes a lot of sense to me that there are men out there who are gay that hate themselves, or other gay people, for it... but I'm not sure that it's fair to say that men who are homophobic are secretly lusting for a little man-on-man action. That seems like a very "pointed" study, and I have to agree there are some very weird things about it... like why homophobic men would get into a study about homophobia in the first place and then watch erotic material. Weird. I suspect it was a study intended to find the thing it found, and the results may not be entirely accurate.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree. One of the most basic facts about human nature is that we don't like people who are different from us. I know a couple people whom I strongly suspect to be self-loathers, and one or two whom I know are, but I'm pretty solidly convinced that general hatred of the Other is the reason for the great majority of homophobes. Further, though I'm out, many of the gay people I know are closeted, and even the closet cases will usually take on homophobia (and in fact the most homophobic ones I know are more-or-less out), even if they don't identify the precise source of their concern. When people try to say that homophobes are, as a rule, secretly gay, I roll my eyes. Even (to take an example from current events) Marcus Bachmann may be fun to joke about, but when you start trying to seriously argue the point, I tune out.

[Rían]

Gwai, how would you describe a homophobe?