Theological Opinions

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

it is very difficult to have a discussion when one side can not let go of completely black and white concepts... i don't know how many times i've mentioned that morality stems from the society one lives in... and it's a very "grey" thing... people assassinate "good" people (i.e. MLK), and very "bad" people work their way into positions of power and get their populace behind them for a time due to fear or sometimes even the promise of success (i.e. hitler)

but if you look at the totality of history, the bad guys do not succeed in the long run... MLKs vision was realized, eventhough he did not live to see it... hitler was defeated and the nazi concepts largely defeated as well

human society has become better at encouraging the things that are good for society, and discouraging the things that are bad over the centuries... why? not because of god, but because IT WORKS! the united states is a great example of this very fact

do you really think i would just "join the SS" after reading all i have posted here? and, if not, why do you say it?

But, BJ, your contention that morality stems from society is of no more validity than your complaints about black and white in others' views. Would you make societal approval black or white? So the opposite would be the other.

And, I for one, do not think you have joined the SS unless it was an approved German value in the 1930's and 1940's. Wait a minute.........

[Lotesse]

What?? Inked, morality is a concept invented by the human race. It obviously comes from society. The idea of gods also comes from society. Human beings made gods and established moral tenets.

BTW, Wordy McWord, I love all the pseudo-intellectual jibber-jabber; it's always good for a laugh!

[EarthBound]

Errr, Hebrews 11: 1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

That was NIV, but I first discovered and fell in love with the King James version here:

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

This for me is a favorite passage...beautiful

[brownjenkins]

well if i'm going to be compared to a nazi, there is no point in continuing... though i think if you thought about things a bit deeper you might see at least a glimmer of reality in what i'm trying to express

[Lotesse]

He might see great, blinding flashes of reality in what you're trying to express, but he'll be damned if he ever stoops to aquiesce a good point to ANYone if that mooter doesn't happen to be just like him. Sad, but true. Great "Christian" example.

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

well if i'm going to be compared to a nazi, there is no point in continuing... though i think if you thought about things a bit deeper you might see at least a glimmer of reality in what i'm trying to express

BJ, most Nazis felt that their societal morality was correct, did they not? They were doing precisely what you suggest. That has been the point about your derivation of morals as societally derived. No need to get all huffy about it, Dude.

Unless you REALLY think that the Nazi's societally derived moral values were wrong. And I'd like to know why you think that.

Also your reference to humanity's progress over the past times and particularly in America have several questions begging to be asked.
1) The century with the greatest advance and usage of killing effectiveness is a moral improvement over the Middle Ages in what way, exactly?
2) If America is the exemplar you suggest, why are the wags opposing the Iraq war on moral grounds?

[inked]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

What?? Inked, morality is a concept invented by the human race. It obviously comes from society. The idea of gods also comes from society. Human beings made gods and established moral tenets.

BTW, Wordy McWord, I love all the pseudo-intellectual jibber-jabber; it's always good for a laugh!

Sorry your comprehension is off today, Lotesse. I find your statement of your position admirably clear. What you seem to have difficulty accepting is anyone else's view on the matter. Now that we have that clear, maybe you'll feel better. But not if you follow the logic you propose that all discordant views are pseudo-intellectual jibber-jabber for then you have foreclosed all options save your own. I believe that is referred to as intolerant, isn't it?

[Falagar]

Unless you REALLY think that the Nazi's societally derived moral values were wrong. And I'd like to know why you think that.

Because they were built on bad research and lies? Hitler (and a whole lot of other scholars of the time)'s race-theories have been pretty firmly debunked. Hitler's claim that the jews were involved in a large-scale conspiracy and many of the other lies his regime served as well. And of course the fact that BJ's, we all are, raised in a society marked by the great war and millions of deaths that Hitler's ideology caused.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by EarthBound

Errr, Hebrews 11: 1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Yes, I knew you were referring to that, but I wanted some expansion on what it meant to you. Can you expand more, or is that all for now?

Brownie - I've got several pending questions for you, when you get a chance ... also, what do you think of the thing I wrote about morality? Does that make sense to you?

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by inked

Sorry your comprehension is off today, Lotesse. I find your statement of your position admirably clear. What you seem to have difficulty accepting is anyone else's view on the matter. Now that we have that clear, maybe you'll feel better. But not if you follow the logic you propose that all discordant views are pseudo-intellectual jibber-jabber for then you have foreclosed all options save your own. I believe that is referred to as intolerant, isn't it?

Beautiful! More lovely jibber-jabber from this forum's MOST INTOLERANT member.

[inked]

Oh, Lotesse, you make me blush!

Actually though there are serious contenders for the title to whom I cannot unfasten the latch of their sandal.

[EarthBound]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yes, I knew you were referring to that, but I wanted some expansion on what it meant to you. Can you expand more, or is that all for now?

Brownie - I've got several pending questions for you, when you get a chance ... also, what do you think of the thing I wrote about morality? Does that make sense to you?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For me this is the most reached for item on my utility belt (no, I don't fly an invisible jet or have a 'truth-telling-lasso'....but I would like to!).

Faith for me is when the 'horrible' happens...and it does and will...I don't assume I understand everything about the situation or get angry at my Lord and walk away mad. In the stead, it is a matter of a running dialogue with Him saying sage things as, "Wow, I REALLY don't understand why this is happening." or "This is soooo painful, please make it stop!" or "Please turn this bill into a bar of chocolate." Errrrrr, maybe not the last, but chocolate to me is proof 'once again' God loves us and wants us happy. Seriously, though, and back to the subject, Chocolate is really great. I mean FAITH is for me that commitment to Him in 1. Attitude 2. Action 3. Hope

I begin with the understanding that He is forever more faithful than I am. AND, importantly, faithful to me, when I am not to him (nope, not perfect, eh).

This is all I think to write on the subject for the moment, RÃ*an

[Rían]

thank you very much for sharing!! I love when people share their thoughts in a thoughtful way.

[Rían]

Rad, here's my thoughts on the points you've raised about the Holocaust, if you're interested:

Originally Posted by Rad

But can anyone believe in a "good God" after such a thing? I don't really see how after the war one should have more faith in God than before. (post 794)

Who am I to advise God? But to answer the question - I'm sure he could've done something, if not to stop the murders completely, to minimize the number of murdered. (805)

All I ask from God is to be consistant. If, in the times of the Bible, he kept helping and saving the people of Israel, answering the prays, why didn't He in the holocaust, the worst mass murder that has ever happened in the world, at least for what we know..?

I wouldn't mind Him stopping all murders.. and why not on the other hand? There is a difference between a murder and other cruelties, say robbery or just being mean. But it's his decision, I just wonder - why didn't he help when he was truly needed?
It's not only me who has no answer, no human being does. In order for me to believe in God I need a better answer than 'God has his reasons to do so and so', when it makes no sense. How can one explain mass murder and a good god? (841)

God is merciful, but anyone who doesn't believe in him will die; God is righteous, but murders without a reason visible (or, from you, because of blood connections over a 2000 years period). And God is good. Very convincing..

And I'm wondering, why would God care whether I believe in him or not? Say someone on the one hand donated a lot to the community and poor, and on the other persuades others that God doesn't exist; even curses God. Why would God care as long as he's a good person?
So: there's evil to help us know God, in order to 'end up' (after death?) doing something very important, astounding in its implications, as you say. What is this thing?
If it's to clean the world from evil and cruelty, it could've been done before, at the creation. And I wonder why it wasn't? Then there would be no need for God to suffer as Jesus either. Or all the mass murders you promised in the future. (884)

Here we disagree, and perhaps I disagree with God: I don't think that death in the punishment for every little sin. If God exists it would be more logical IMO to judge the person by how much good and bad deeds he did. If he has done more good than bad... I can't really see why he should be murdered by God.
So in other words... you don't know. I accept that; but questions that cannot be answered by religion are exactly the thing which makes religion hard to believe in. Not only that it can't be proven, it doesn't fit the world I see around me. (892)

It's not the unexplained I'm talking about; it's the contradition between 'good God' and 'everyone dies'. [Fine, not everyone: more than 5/6 of the world, as most of the Christians will survive you say] I have problems with 'good God' - 'cruelty in the world'. And why does he have to kill? There must be another way as he is all powerful, mighty, knowing, etc.etc.etc...

It's much easier answering all of the questions with a neutral God existing. Or, rather - no god whatsoever. (903)

There's a lot of good questions/thoughts here that IMO are worth thinking about. The biggest theme I see running through this is the "if God is good and powerful, how could things like the Holocaust happen?" question.

Here's what I think: God's "problem" is that He's too good.

See, you seem to be content with God just basically stopping murders and the really bad stuff, while letting minor stuff go. You are rightly angered and offended against those who carried out the crimes of the Holocaust on the innocent victims, and so is God. But the difference is that while you seem content to let some sins slide, God (who is completely good) is NOT.

Can you see the logic of this? You are a moral but imperfect being (sorry to call you on that! I hope you admit it ); you cry out against the wrongdoings that took place in the Holocaust, but are content to let other, more "minor" wrongdoings slide. And logically, a perfectly good being would have the same reaction as you to the Holocaust, in addition to the "minor" sins that you think should slide. Can you agree that this makes sense? If so, I'll move on to the second half of the question. If not, let's discuss this part more.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

What?? Inked, morality is a concept invented by the human race. It obviously comes from society. The idea of gods also comes from society. Human beings made gods and established moral tenets.

BTW, Wordy McWord, I love all the pseudo-intellectual jibber-jabber; it's always good for a laugh!

I agree with you about morality Lotesse. Inked's posts make sense to me, even if we disagree. But either way, I have to bow out of this thread for now since I'm really behind in school, but am actually getting my work done.


I think there's a lot of misconception about Witchcraft in Western society, but I'll have to address that another time. I think it would be interesting to talk about.

It's too bad because there are a number of awesome posts. Thanks for sharing very personal experiences and thoughts with us Lief. I enjoyed your post.

[Spock]

If any desire to discuss Wican and it's various branches and spellings, I think a new topic would be appropriate provided we have enough diverse interest and not just a few, in which case I'd suggest PM'ng the stuff. ......whew, a run on run on sentence.

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

and i would say that if he truely loved them he would have gone into an awful lot more detail about it

i know i do with my kids... i don't just say, "that is wrong" ... or even, "i am just saying this 'cause i love you, even if you don't understand" ... i explain to them the practical "why" behind it so they can see the reasoning for themselves... so that they can come to the understanding themselves... it is a much more powerful motivator (IMO )

the practical "whys" seem to be lacking in much of the biblical text

OK, BJ, more depth on your concern:

http://catholica.pontifications.net/?p=1373#comments

[Lotesse]

Inked, no offense but how come you don't like to actually WRITE what you want to say, you always use links instead? I personally hate looking up links in this way, when someone just slaps a link down and then says "What about this?" So lazy. What does that link say, Inked? Can you at least paraphrase it?

[Radagast The Brown]

Lief- I think our argument really is going nowhere; I think I'm right and you think you are... and I don't feel like annoying you with my opinions about your expiriences with God so..

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Rad, here's my thoughts on the points you've raised about the Holocaust, if you're interested:

There's a lot of good questions/thoughts here that IMO are worth thinking about. The biggest theme I see running through this is the "if God is good and powerful, how could things like the Holocaust happen?" question.

Here's what I think: God's "problem" is that He's too good.

See, you seem to be content with God just basically stopping murders and the really bad stuff, while letting minor stuff go. You are rightly angered and offended against those who carried out the crimes of the Holocaust on the innocent victims, and so is God. But the difference is that while you seem content to let some sins slide, God (who is completely good) is NOT.

Can you see the logic of this? You are a moral but imperfect being (sorry to call you on that! I hope you admit it ); you cry out against the wrongdoings that took place in the Holocaust, but are content to let other, more "minor" wrongdoings slide. And logically, a perfectly good being would have the same reaction as you to the Holocaust, in addition to the "minor" sins that you think should slide. Can you agree that this makes sense? If so, I'll move on to the second half of the question. If not, let's discuss this part more.

I don't agree, and I don't think Judaism does either. As far as I know, in Yom Kipur (Atonement Day?) God decides who will live and who will die according to what he did during the year. If he prays and asks for forgiveness from everyone he hurt, and asks for forgiveness from God of the sins he did, his chances of survival increase.
I find it illogical to demand from human beings to be perfect. As an all-knowing being he should know that it's impossible and demand less, even though he wishes an "ideal world" (which he could create anyway if he really wanted to).

I don't think it makes sense to judge a person who lied the same way one judges a person who killed or raped.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I find it illogical to demand from human beings to be perfect. As an all-knowing being he should know that it's impossible and demand less, even though he wishes an "ideal world" (which he could create anyway if he really wanted to).

What is impossible with man is not impossible with God. When God enters us, he begins the work of making us perfect, and the perfection of everyone who follows him will be made complete. Jesus said, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I don't think it makes sense to judge a person who lied the same way one judges a person who killed or raped.

I don't think so either- and neither does Jesus. In the scripture, he said that the severity of punishment on Judgment Day is in proportion to how bad the sin was.