04-06-2006, 03:24 PM | #921 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Well, Brownie, Lief wrote:
If one acknowledges that Islam does have violence in its nature (and history shows that this is so) And you wrote: But christianity also has violence in it's history. So that in fact your response was along entirely different lines than what he stated, despite the fact that the two lines were deceptively similar. That sort of thing is called "sophistry", ya know.
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04-06-2006, 03:32 PM | #922 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Re: Fundamentalists, your definition of fundamentalism is one that makes every single orthodox Christian (and I would imagine Jew, Muslim, etc.) a fundamentalist. It is unacceptable. Why not say merely that fundamentalism is religious intolerance?
But given your definition of fundamentalism, I accept your statement Catholicism (only one Catholic; Catholics sects don't exist!) is fundamentalist by nature with pride, and its damn true. 'Modern realities' are as ephemeral as the wind.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-06-2006, 04:04 PM | #923 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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No sophistry intended. I just don't have time for 5-6 paragraphs on every post.
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04-06-2006, 04:14 PM | #924 | |
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But I think that, in practice (as opposed to principle ), most humans are able to deal with this inherent paradox. Especially as they get older and beyond the somewhat idealistic early years of life. I'm not saying that they lose their 100% faith, just that they learn how to accept the fact that some other people they must coexist with also have 100% faith, but in something quite different. So they learn to look towards the similarities, which usually far outweigh the differences. We are all humans, after all. In the end, it's agreeing to disagree, which is another form of tolerance.
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04-06-2006, 05:15 PM | #925 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Sorry, brownie, but your statement is false.
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I believe everyone ought to convert to my religion. Therefore, logically, you would say I consider non-Catholic to be ones not to be tolerated. However, you don't consider one thing. Intent and will are essential to Catholicism; a forced baptism is null and void, never happened. Intent is necessary, so that the only other option for 'not tolerating' is slaughter, which is contrary to numerous Catholic teachings. Incidentally, slaughtering. Therefore, I believe in tolerating others. I don't think, for the record, that tolerance is the summa virtus, however, as the modern seculars do. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-06-2006, 05:35 PM | #926 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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You do realise, Brownie, that you just said, apparently, that fundamentalists can be tolerant?
1) Fundamentalists are those who put 'written doctrine ahead of present-day realities.' 2) It seems fair to equate this with the 100% faith you speak of. 3) Those with 100% faith 'learn how to accept the fact that some other people they must coexist with also have 100% faith, but in something quite different'. 4) You say that 'In the end, it's agreeing to disagree'; 'it' presumably being the aforementioned learning how to accept the fact etc. 5) You say agreeing to disagree is a form of tolerance. Therefore, Fundamentalists are tolerant. QED
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-06-2006, 06:57 PM | #927 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Thank-you for having the courage to post here, Serenoli. It's great to have a real Muslim on the thread . I'm afraid some of my views have high potential of offending, but I just can't help it. My research of history has led me to the views I currently have, but sometimes it may sound as though I am more strongly against Islam than I am. On my original posts here, I made several positive comments about Islam that have gotten lost because my more negative views are more controversial, so they get debated and thus get all the attention. I'll give you a fuller explanation of my views though, as soon as I respond to Brownjenkins and Insidious Rex.
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Insidious Rex, like I was saying earlier, your objection to part 1 of my strategy is based entirely on your lack of sharing my religious convictions. I don't have common ground with many people here at all, and that's why you disagree with my point 1. I think I can argue from a large number of examples from history that religion is a workable solution to the current problems, however. I don't know if I should get into that here though, for it would be pretty much also constituting a history based argument that the religion I adhere to is correct and true. That would belong in a different thread. Quote:
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That goes for Christianity too, and that is the root of why I disagree very strongly with Christian liberals. Many of them try to reinterpret scriptures they don't like to say they have different meanings, but doing that means that they are making up their own religion and they can no longer depend on what they read. It'd diluting the religion. It is not the true religion either, not what the original makers of the religion believed or practiced. It is something that is very nonsensical. Quote:
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Though it is true that there were also many extremely fervent Christians who believed that violence was exactly what the Bible called for. They can be called fundamentalists. Some for example thought the Pope was the Anti-Christ. Fighting against the Anti-Christ makes total sense, just like fighting against "the Great Satan" makes sense. There are examples of Christians who are liberal or who are fundamentalist who have been responsible for violence- the problem in Christianity is not with fundamentalism. In fact, if all Christians followed Jesus' teachings in a fundamentalist way, the world would be a much more peaceful place. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-06-2006, 07:29 PM | #928 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(I sure miss our rpg, don't you?! ) Well, if you can hang in here and realize that all of us are Mooters together and we all like each other here, regardless of beliefs, then I'd sure love to have you join in and explain some things from your POV! And let us know what is hurtful to you, if it's not too difficult for you, because I for one would like to know (and I"m sure everyone else here would, too) so I can be very careful to not hurt you - I"ll take extra care when wording my posts in those areas. My goal in these threads is to learn and to understand and to be understood, if possible - it is NOT to argue and certainly not to hurt anyone. So, I hope you can stay, because I think it would be a HUGE blessing to all of us to hear your POV, but I sure understand if it's just too painful for you and you need to just stay away from this thread. To start off with your post, you say we "dismiss a whole way of life as 'violent' and 'dangerous'. " I can't speak for others, but when I discuss Islam, I'm discussing the authorized writings, mainly, and what the writings urge people to do. I don't think all the people are that way by any means.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-06-2006 at 07:31 PM. |
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04-06-2006, 08:31 PM | #929 |
Elf Lord
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Serenoli, I really don't mean to insult you in my posts. I have high respect for you and respect Muslims in general too. I love how Muslims in general have strong moral fortitude, refusing to go the way of a crummy society "where-everything-goes", as you very correctly put it.
I love how your people refuse to go the way of such wishy washiness, instability and groundlessness. There is no standard for many people, but there is a standard for Muslims, and that is beautiful. I greatly appreciate the upright moral fortitude of your people. I don't think Islam is just violence or just evil. I do think that the violence that exists is evil, though, and that the historical violence is evil too. I also am forced to believe that it is in the nature of Islam . But I do love many elements of your faith, and I think society would gain much if it followed your religion's example. I think even from the suicide bombers, Christians have two important things to learn. The first is courage and the second is zeal. There are Christians who have both, but much of Western society is degenerated and morally bankrupt, and there is much weakness and falling short in many Western churches as well. I have enormous respect for the Christians who live in the Middle East and for the Chinese Christians. Many of them experience horrible persecution and stick to their faith in spite of it, turning the other cheek and refusing to return fire with fire. Those Christians I just can't tell you how much respect I have for. But I respect very strongly the Muslims I know personally (you and a college friend), and Muslims in general. I even have some respect for certain aspects of the lives of Muslim terrorists. And I know that Islam also has some absolutely splendid teachings in it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-06-2006 at 08:38 PM. |
04-06-2006, 08:44 PM | #930 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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I think there are some highly dangerous aspects to Islam as well as some highly beautiful and good teachings. The trouble is that in my posts on this thread, the only ones that people have disagreed with are my claims that Islam is also a violent religion, and therefore those views get the spotlight. I'm very sorry if this has led to my making posts that seem just all out attacks and complete condemnations of Islam, for that is not my intent.
I'll now respond to your post in more detail. Quote:
I wouldn't bring Christianity into this at all if I didn't believe it to be the true religion. Quote:
I am sure there were highly moral Muslims in all time periods- there are some very positive teachings in the Qur'an. There are many ethical, moral teachings which everyone would do well to follow, and which, very unfortunately, a large number of Christians fall very badly short on. Many Christians would do very well to look at the Muslim example and try to show half that much dedication to doing what's right. Quote:
You're right, morality is taking a back-seat to freedom-to-do whatever you please. Some people use this freedom to live highly moral lives, and some people use this freedom to live highly immoral lives. Yet if Christians imposed their doctrines upon everyone like they did in the past, there would be resistance. There would be violence. There would be unfair policies against non-Christians, just like there are unfair policies against non-Christians in many conservative Muslim countries today. Imposing morality causes the violence and unfairness toward people who have different beliefs. There also have been violence and unfair laws against non-Christians in countries where Christians tried to impose their moral views upon everyone. Quote:
And I'm very sorry if I seem offensive to you, in my posts. I have a very high respect for you as a person, and I greatly appreciate how most Muslims seem to stick to a high code of moral behavior like they do. Quote:
Looking at history makes me see that in the past, most Muslims believed attacking other nations in violent jihad was right, and particularly the founders of Islam . I'm sorry if I'm offending by saying this, but history shows that Mohammed and his early followers conquered huge nations and subjecting multitudes to their rule through force of arms. Many times, Muslim rule was less harsh than the rule of those they'd conquered. Mohammed certainly lived by a moral code far more advanced than those of the pagans he conquered in Arabia. Yet this was still violent jihad, and an invasion that nearly conquered the world. Modern Shi'ites still look forward to the return of the Hidden Imam who will conquer the world the rest of the way. Quote:
Jesus taught that the truth should be spread peacefully. If morality is legislated as law in a society, violence and injustice naturally result. We see this in many of the Muslim countries of modern times, for Christians experience a great deal of persecution in conservative Muslim countries. This was also true in the past, in Christian countries where Christians refused to follow Jesus' example of spreading the gospel peacefully, and instead chose to impose morality through unfair discriminatory laws and violence. We have that in our history, too. As people here love to point out . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-06-2006 at 10:32 PM. |
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04-06-2006, 11:37 PM | #931 | |||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Re: Fundamentalism, the word is simply not used in the sense which BJ uses it. Only papers like the Guardian would call the Pope fundamentalist; it is used to mean those who are strongly opposed to any and all variant beliefs. One cannot merely play Humpty Dumpty and say, "Words mean what I say they mean; no more and no less." Quote:
St. Benedict also happens to be one of my favourite saints. Quote:
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*goes to the corner and says three Paternosters* Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-07-2006, 12:17 AM | #932 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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So Lief, what your opinion boils down to is this - that Islam has many beauitiful aspects, it has many good effects on the lives of those who follow it, but it is bad because some people chose to interpret it in such a way as to give themselves excuses for commiting heinous crimes?
Are you going to compare its steadying influence on everyday life, with a few acts of violence? As Insidious Rex points out, its all about perspective. To you, the evils of a society with no rules except that of absolute freedom, and justice, is better. A society where people have the right to be immoral, for after all, it is their basic human 'right'. For me, a society with laws and boundaries, and standards, is better, even if there are those who turn it to their 'evil' purposes. Do you for an instant, imagine there were any here who support al-Qaeda? I, at any rate, hate people like them, for desecrating the teachings of the Quran, and turning it to such evil. I'm not saying it is perfect. Islamic society can change, and for the better, but the last thing it needs is for people coming and attacking it. I have no problem with you hunting terrorists, and extremists down, but attack Islam as well? If there is an increase in Muslims who are looking at more violent methods of interpreting Islam, then it is because of the way the West is now attacking Islam... the way you are attacking it, actually. And, Lief, I'm really not offended. I like you very much... I couldn't be offended. Its been nice, too, to see how many people have taken my views, and considered them... like Gwaimir, and brownjenkins and I.Rex. If I seem illogical, or emotional, or overly aggresive, forgive me.
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04-07-2006, 12:32 AM | #933 | ||
Elf Lord
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The point is that there are many passages that right-wing liberals ignored. I could bring up a lot more passages to confront actions that some of those Christians chose to take when they committed some of the horrors Christianity now is called on. Anti-Semitism, for example, and the Inquisition, and several of the wars are all completely counter-scripture, or counter a literal interpretation of the scripture. The Bible is dead plain on those facts. So I think it would be right to term past Christianity as right-wing liberalism. Left-wing liberals often will skip passages that seem to them to be intolerant, while right-wing liberals often skipped passages that are clearly tolerant. Meanwhile, fundamentalists won't skip any passages. I expect fundamentalists still will frequently come to wrong conclusions, but at least they don't pick and choose, or attempt to reinterpret what they disagree with. That's different from right-wing and left-wing liberals.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-07-2006, 01:02 AM | #934 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Under "funny timing" -
My oldest son had a Spanish project where they had to find a Cuban recipe and make it and bring it to class. He, being lazy like his mom, found one that was rice and black beans. We printed out the recipe in full and pointed out that there were a few more ingredients, and helped him make it up, and it turned out really delicious! We're gonna keep it! Its name? "Moros y Cristianos" - which translates to Moors and Christians! I'm happy to say that the Moors and Christians got along just fine, and tasted delicious, too! [/OT]
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-07-2006, 01:12 AM | #935 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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I look at the religion's founders. Mohammed was the founder of Islam. If Mohammed, the one who heard from the angel, and Mohammed's earliest followers, believed they should wage violent warfare on the world and conquer it, it seems logical that that is the correct interpretation of jihad. History since them has shown that other Muslims behaved exactly the same way until the last couple centuries, and now more and more Muslims are reverting back to the ways Islam used to be interpreted. Quote:
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First of all, it's impossible to accomplish. Legislating morality does not change people's hearts. Second, as Jesus claimed, God's followers should "return evil with kindness." Jesus said that we should "turn the other cheek," not try to enforce goodness by the sword. I don't think immorality is a right. I don't think it helps for us to try forcing morality though, for that won't end immorality and will cause violence, injustice and unfairness, and there is a higher way than force of law or the sword. That is spiritual warfare, war of the soul- the modern interpretation of jihad. This is a way of fighting with spiritual weapons, girded in spiritual armor against evil on another realm. The Apostle Paul said that our fight is not against flesh and blood but against powers and dominions of the spiritual realm: devils. Those are the real enemy that we must fight, and fighting them can do what physical swords or Earthly laws cannot- fighting these enemies can transform people's souls. That's another reason Jesus sent his followers the Holy Spirit as well, to give us the power to do his will in the world. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-07-2006 at 01:14 AM. |
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04-07-2006, 10:48 AM | #936 | |||
An enigma in a conundrum
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04-07-2006, 12:09 PM | #937 | |||
Elf Lord
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As for these two points you made below: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-07-2006, 02:53 PM | #938 | ||||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I disagree with your above statement; every interpretation of Scripture except for the most absolutely basic ones (such as 'Jesus existed and was the Messiah') has difficulties with it, but that doesn't make it 'picking and choosing'. Also, you do not take into account the fact that people might not be thoroughly familar with Scripture, but might merely know certain passages which seem to indicate what you call 'right-wing liberalism'. Quote:
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Also, I note that you say the pro-right-wing 'seem' to be intolerant and the pro left-wing 'are clearly' tolerant. Double standard, isn't that?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-07-2006, 03:59 PM | #939 | ||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Remember, Jesus was considered a friend by the prostitutes. He didn't condemn them, though he certainly disagreed with their morals. He advocated not judging an adulteress for her crime, and after he had freed her, said "leave your life of sin." Jesus was not one to try legislating his moral values on others, but presented his message with kindness. Legislating Christian morals and trying to make everyone follow our way was not Jesus' way and would naturally cause injustice in our country. Think about it. How would you, Gwaimir, like to live in a country where you have to be a Muslim? And how would Serenoli like to live in a country where we force her to be Christian? Or to be atheist? Forcing people to behave according to our religious beliefs by weight of the law is evil and useless. That is why we must have freedom of religion and freedom in politics, and this is why we have to have laws decided by everyone with protection for the rights of minorities. That's why our governments are formed the way they are in the West. Quote:
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"Brother will betray brother to death, and a man his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another." If persecuted, flee. From the same chapter: "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." Jesus says in this chapter, if rejected, leave. If persecuted, flee. And know that you will be persecuted, you will suffer from a sword, your families will betray you, but you must stick close to me regardless. The context clearly shows he is talking about persecution of the disciples. Jesus tells his disciples above that they must be ready to deal with persecution, "whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me," and tells them that they must be ready to lose their lives for his sake. Shortly before this passage also, in the same speech, in the same chapter, Jesus talked with them very specifically about the persecution they would experience. "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues." The statement that "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword," is clearly in the context of persecution that Jesus predicts he and his disciples will experience, and he tells them in the same chapter how to respond to persecution. He tells them to flee if persecuted and to leave if rejected. He never anywhere in the speech says, "fight." However, I admit that one can interpret this verse as a violent one if one separates it from everything else in the chapter and takes it entirely by itself. People have done this with Christianity before, seizing passages and taking them totally out of context in order to convince others about things. You can take one of the Psalms to actually say there is no God, if you want! It says, "There is no God." However, that's ignoring the context . The full sentence is, "the fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'" Quote:
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I absolutely agree with you that one can take random passages from the Bible, usually completely out of context, to make arguments in favor of all sorts of horrible things. This is an abuse of scripture. It does occur, but I don't think the Bible can be easily interpreted to mean whatever people like. It takes hard work, often, for them to get the interpretation they want out of it. I think the Bible is a unified whole that makes sense and does not contradict itself, and interpretations that try to support things like anti-Semitism and violence are very, very weak, at their best. Quote:
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However, there is debate over whether there are intolerant things in the Bible or not, which is why I said that some passages might "seem" intolerant, rather than be "clearly" intolerant.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-07-2006 at 05:31 PM. |
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04-07-2006, 04:06 PM | #940 |
the Shrike
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Isn't that a tad off-topic?
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