Should evolution be taught in schools?

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by Giroth
HOBBIT,you did not fully listen.
I said I was NO expert at it.I am subject to make a mistake.
besides,I said that the bible said things about what would happen today,as well.These things described HAVE happened,and more will come.

Oh and nomatter WHAT you say about evoution or about my belief,
you will never change my thoughts......it's like me trying to explain creationsim to you,and why I believe it.
I am a Christian,
your an athiest,so there you go.....we're bound to clash LOL

~Giroth

Am I an expert? No. I'm just several months older than you. It is not that black and white. Its not like im an atheist so absolutetely nothing with change my mind - no. If someone says something reasonable to me, I will change my views. You have not, as I found many flaws in your "proof" of creation. :P

[Giroth]

hm?only a few moths older than me?.....I thought you were 40 something...no offence:P

haha............I have not..........but I have set my view on what I believe to be true,
and evolution doesn't sound MORE reasonable,so I don't change MY view.
if it's the same for you,but you are more open,then so be it.I
won't turn away form creationism...:P

[HOBBIT]

nah, not a few (which is 2). i said several :P I was born in April 88' and you (according to your profile) Dec 88'

Actually, ZERO offense taken - that is like a high compliment

I'm glad we can agree to disagree :P

[Giroth]

heheheheh....me too,I suppose.:P

well,my dad is 40,and he is.........VERY disagreeable and stubborn.........but I suppose you could say the same of me,yes?heheheh



No hard feelings,


~Giroth

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Reasonable? Yes. It is very reasonable, thats why so many people believe in it without even trying to understand evolution. But it is not good enough for me that everything is complex, so therefore someone created it.... to me it is just a possibility. Evolution is much more reasonable to ME. But obviously, to a lot of people Creation is more reasonable...

OK, thanks, Hobbit.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
At this point, I'm going to start researching the links. I would like to ask the people on this thread to please answer my question - "is it reasonable, based on observing the world around us, to think that there might be an intelligent designer/manufacturer behind things?" If I get some "yes" answers, then I'll share the links here. If I don't get some "yes" answers, then I'll just PM them to Cass, who very reasonably and intelligently asked to see the data behind the CBID theory before she could answer my question about the integrity of the CBID scientists.

I hope some of you will honestly answer "yes", because I really believe it is a very reasonable thought, and I think that anyone that honestly thinks about it will answer "yes". However, I think that many people don't answer "yes" solely because of fear - peer pressure fear, mostly, but some other fears, too.

Any takers?

I don't see where it's any more reasonable than pure evolution. I'm not sure why you think it's reasonable. Is it possible - yes. Anything is. Is it probable? - no. I don't think it is. As I said - life could have just have been placed on earth by aliens too. I don't think that should be tought in school though. I don't feel that speculation should be taught in school. There is no way to prove that a higher being had a role in our creation. There is evidence of evolution - and therefore should be taught. Even if it was by a a higher power - it doesn't eliminate the evolution part - so why would people insist on teaching the unprovable part? Teach the actual demonstrated theory - evolution. Just because we look around and see the birds flying and the beautiful trees and are amazed doesn't mean that it took intelligence to make them. We just don't understand it.

[Rían]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I don't see where it's any more reasonable than pure evolution. I'm not sure why you think it's reasonable. Is it possible - yes. Anything is. Is it probable? - no. I don't think it is. As I said - life could have just have been placed on earth by aliens too. I don't think that should be tought in school though. I don't feel that speculation should be taught in school. There is no way to prove that a higher being had a role in our creation. There is evidence of evolution - and therefore should be taught. Even if it was by a a higher power - it doesn't eliminate the evolution part - so why would people insist on teaching the unprovable part? Teach the actual demonstrated theory - evolution. Just because we look around and see the birds flying and the beautiful trees and are amazed doesn't mean that it took intelligence to make them. We just don't understand it.

JD, you're jumping waaay ahead of the question. I'm not asking if you think it's probable or possible. I'm not talking about supporting data. I'm talking about if you think if the mere idea, unsupported by anything else, is one that a reasonable person might consider. NOT conclude, but consider or wonder about.

I think Hobbit expressed it well when he said "Reasonable? Yes. It is very reasonable, thats why so many people believe in it without even trying to understand evolution." Now that's how I mean it. Hobbit doesn't think that it's scientific, or that any data supports it (if I read him correctly - is that right, Hobbit?), but he can see how it is a reasonable thought.

Let me try another illustration here - perhaps this will help. I think you guys are just reading way too much into the question.

OK, the animal cops (hmm, perhaps blue jays? They seem like they might be good cops) get called out to a crime scene at the local zoo - there is a little bird house (say about 1 foot by 1 foot, or 25 cm by 25 cm) that someone broke into and wrote teensy little graffiti on the interior walls. The door of the birdhouse was taken off, but the birdhouse was left entirely undamaged otherwise. Now the elephant area is on one side of the birdhouse, and the squirrel area is on the other.

Would it be reasonable to think that the elephant MIGHT have done it? Well, no, not really.

And that's the level I'm trying to get at - a basic, first-cut shot at the solution of a problem. In this case, it would be reasonable to think that the squirrels MIGHT have done it (cheeky little buggars!) Further investigation might prove, however, that the snakes did it (or even the elephants somehow!) But it is REASONABLE to think that the squirrels MIGHT have done it.

Does that explain it more clearly?

Does anyone else have a better way to word what I'm trying to ask?

[Baby-K]

RÃ*an - do you mean reasonable as in weighing the evidence of both possibilities and then, once this is done, elliminating the option that cannot hold true due to spesific elements prohibiting the assimilation of that into a person's reality? (like in your analogy about the grafiti on the bird house - the elephant is probably elliminated due to size, i.e it is unbelievable that he could have done it as he is too big to fit in there & we cannot assimilate the possibility of a big elephant doing such small work into our preconceived ideas of what elephants are capable of)


this conversation about AWOL elephants & Blue jays will of course not make sense anywhere else

(why am I struggling so much with English today?)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Baby-K
[B]RÃ*an - do you mean reasonable as in weighing the evidence of both possibilities and then, once this is done, elliminating the option that cannot hold true due to spesific elements prohibiting the assimilation of that into a person's reality? (like in your analogy about the grafiti on the bird house - the elephant is probably elliminated due to size, i.e it is unbelievable that he could have done it as he is too big to fit in there & we cannot assimilate the possibility of a big elephant doing such small work into our preconceived ideas of what elephants are capable of)

No, that's NOT what I mean - you guys are just so smart you're jumping waaay ahead of what I mean. Weighing evidence will come later- I'm talking about a FIRST thought, based on what you see. And I'm asking is it reasonable, given our observations of the complexity in the world, to think that an intelligent being might have made things. No evidence weighing yet! Just an initial forming of an idea, based on observation of the situation.

this conversation about AWOL elephants & Blue jays will of course not make sense anywhere else

Hey, at least I'm original

(why am I struggling so much with English today?)

I think you caught it from me - I'm having trouble too - prob. because I'm mad about the stupid field trip for today (see vent thread) Yuck!!

[samwiselvr2008]

Rian, I geuss I'll take, I don't really know what your asking thought, I do belive that there had to be a desiner behind it all, and I believe in Christianity, so is that what you were asking, or were you asking about posting the links? Or the info.? Eather way, yes to all of them. Or, if you were talking about something else, then I'm really lost and please try to explain it again!

[Rían]

Did you see my little crime-at-the-zoo example (I think on the previous page)? In that example, it's reasonable to think that a smaller-type animal was responsible. Now when the evidence is gathered and looked at, we might find something different, or we might find our initial guess was right. But I'm NOT talking about looking at evidence, I'm talking about just a first-cut-at-things idea - is it reasonable, looking at the complex world around us, to think that perhaps an intelligent and powerful being designed and made the world?

[Rían]

I didn't think this would be such a difficult-to-understand question

Hobbit, you seem to catch what I mean - how would YOU word it? Is my wording just really unclear?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Let me try another illustration here - perhaps this will help. I think you guys are just reading way too much into the question.

OK, the animal cops (hmm, perhaps blue jays? They seem like they might be good cops) get called out to a crime scene at the local zoo - there is a little bird house (say about 1 foot by 1 foot, or 25 cm by 25 cm) that someone broke into and wrote teensy little graffiti on the interior walls. The door of the birdhouse was taken off, but the birdhouse was left entirely undamaged otherwise. Now the elephant area is on one side of the birdhouse, and the squirrel area is on the other.

Would it be reasonable to think that the elephant MIGHT have done it? Well, no, not really.

I maybe taking it again to far but I'm thinking: elephants, very agile trunks. I've seen them use it to hold grass and branches, I even have seen them paint (Thai Elephant Art project, don't ask). So I' not writing the elephant off yet.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

How about hippopotamus?

[Baby-K]

No, that's NOT what I mean - you guys are just so smart you're jumping waaay ahead of what I mean. Weighing evidence will come later- I'm talking about a FIRST thought, based on what you see. And I'm asking is it reasonable, given our observations of the complexity in the world, to think that an intelligent being might have made things. No evidence weighing yet! Just an initial forming of an idea, based on observation of the situation.

Well, as a first thought, yeah - anything could be reasonable I would think. However, our realities are not sustained by first thoughts, but rather by thorough investigation an ellimination of unrealistic options. There is a vast diferrence between reasonable and realistic.

See, I believe that God must have had something to do with the creation of it all - in placing the raw material here, but that evolution is mostly responsible for the world as we see it today. IMO we should look at the option of teaching both as supportive to each other.

Hey, at least I'm original

Now that's a reasonable assumption

I think you caught it from me - I'm having trouble too - prob. because I'm mad about the stupid field trip for today (see vent thread) Yuck!!

Yeah - it just felt like I was spelling everythin wrong - eventually I thought I should try Russian 'cos it couldn't get any worse (it was one of those rare days when i was thinking in Afrikaans & trying to translate my thoughts, rather than think in English as I usually do)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I maybe taking it again to far but I'm thinking: elephants, very agile trunks. I've seen them use it to hold grass and branches, I even have seen them paint (Thai Elephant Art project, don't ask). So I' not writing the elephant off yet.

I just watched an elephant pick little bits of hay out of his water pond yesterday at the zoo - amazing dexterity!

No, I wouldn't want you to write off the elephant. That would be wrong to do at this point. Remember, we haven't started the investigative work yet. But I would think that most people would agree that it is more reasonable to initially think that the squirrel might have done it - do you guys agree?

I meant to make the birdhouse size such that (1) the DOOR of it would not admit an elephant's trunk; (2) but if you took a side of it off, an elephant's trunk would fit.

Or we could just switch from one big mammal to another - how about switching from an elephant to a killer whale? That would make it even less likely!

But again, I'm not talking about eliminating other possibilities - just is it reasonable to think blah blah blah yada yada yada. (I'm sure you guys are getting as sick of this as I am, but I think you're finally starting to see what I mean. I wish I could word things better.)

Originally posted by Baby K
Well, as a first thought, yeah - anything could be reasonable I would think. However, our realities are not sustained by first thoughts, but rather by thorough investigation an ellimination of unrealistic options. There is a vast diferrence between reasonable and realistic.

Maybe the problem is semantics - I would say anything could be possible, but not everything would be reasonable for a first-cut guess. IOW, it would be a more natural, reasonable thing to start the investigation at the squirrel house than the killer whale tank. Does that make sense? And I agree with the rest of your quote - well said

[Rían]

ps - do you know what Icholta is doing right now, Eärniel?

pps - I'll finish off this topic today and start with the links - thanks for being so patient, everyone.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
ps - do you know what Icholta is doing right now, Eärniel?

Unfortunately not right now. The updates of the month of may will only be up next week or so. But I can make an educated guess from the usual lay-out of life at the orphanage: At noon she has very like had a lovely mudwallow with the rest of her mini-herd. Maybe even with a game bushbashing afterwards. Knowing her, a little pushinggame with Nyiro is also possible. And around this time, I'm guessing she'll be back at the stockades eating some copra-cakes and trying to steal the milkshare of the smaller elephants before going to bed. I know, I'm obsessed....

here ends the little intermezzo.(before we go entirly off topic )

[Rían]

... but are there any birdhouses on the compound .....

[Earniel]

... but are there any birdhouses on the compound .....

Not that I know of. Of course only the Stockades where the elephants spend the night are fenced. The rest of the time they're out in the park/reserve. There are plenty of nests I suppose. Sometimes the little elephants get scared by a flock of birds that they run trompetting back to [EDIT:their] keepers. (bless their cute little big-eared heads).

How about hippopotamus?

You know, I just had the astonishing mental image about a hippo taking a ladder out his pocket, placing it against the tree, tearing off the door of the birdhouse, picking up a (long) paintbrush and with its tongue out its mouth carefully beginning to put graffiti on the wall. Then quickly stuffing the brush and the ladder into its pocket, jumping over his fence and trying to look innocent in his own compound. I think the exams are finally getting to me.

So maybe we should get to the point before I go completely [EDIT: off] my rocker (provided I didn't do that already long ago) and just say: Yes, an intelligent designer of the world may be a reasonable thing to think at first sight. I believe that is the main point of our little zoo-drama.