Theology III

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I hadn't heard that, interesting hypothesis.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I hadn't heard that, interesting hypothesis.

It is interesting, and even only a hypothesis, it shows there are indeed other explanations.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Same sort of bullsh!t that Penn and Teller employ: "If I just talk trash about something and say "No it isn't", then I've debunked it." I simply don't understand why people have such contempt for these things, for any sort of piety.

*Reads the article.*

You're completely correct. Rather than making any attempt at refutation, it's all mockery, sarcasm and insults. A completely waste of time.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Gwai, I think you're back at the point Coffeehouse raised.

It's what the 'default setting' is. Skeptics say the burden of proof is on the believers. Prove a miracle. Believers say the reality of God is obvious. Prove it doesn't exist.

What, "prove" Padre Pio? How do you "prove" someone? Anyway, don't be silly. Very, very few people really care for proofs; they clamour for them, but if they get one, they'll just find ways to ignore it. Antipathy always finds an excuse. That's the human way.

And I don't think 'piety' is on trial. "Padre Pio" is a hero to a very small portion of the population...most humans have never heard of him. Piety, even religious piety, comes in a great many flavors.

Well, Catholicism is the largest religion, if you consider Sunni and Shia Islam to be two different ones (which I think most of them would), and Padre Pio is a very big figure in Catholicism, and indeed, has a surprising degree of exposure outside the Catholic Church.

Anyway, what on earth are you talking about, "trial"? This is polemics, pure and simple.

Well, Coffee, no-one ever really took that Egyptian apparition seriously.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Well, Coffee, no-one ever really took that Egyptian apparition seriously.

Except your good friend-in-faith Lief But that doesn't count?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Really? I didn't know that.

Shame, Lief! You should know better than to take an around the clock, constant, appearing-to-thousands-daily apparition seriously. God speaks in the still, small voice, not the roaring whirlwind or the thunderclap.

P. S. Steer clear of Medjugorje, or however it's spelt, as well.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

"Geophysical variables and behavior: LIV. Zeitoun (Egypt) apparitions of the Virgin Mary as tectonic strain-induced luminosities.

[My paper] J S Derr, M A Persinger
Department of Psychology, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada.

Temporal analyses were completed between the occurrence of intense displays of exotic luminous phenomena over a church in Zeitoun (Egypt) during the years 1968 through 1969 and regional seismicity. These phenomena, viewed by thousands of onlookers, began one year before an unprecedented increase (factor of 10) in seismic activity about 400 km to the southeast. Monthly analyses also demonstrated a moderate (0.56) correlation between increases in seismicity and the occurrence of luminous phenomena during the same or previous month. These results were interpreted as further support for the hypothesis that most anomalous (terrain-related) luminous phenomena are generated by factors associated with tectonic strain."

Oh, give me a break. You saw the pictures. It's clearly the size and shape of a person, with a halo also, again, clearly visible. If it was random luminescence caused by tectonic activity, it would probably look like a gaseous cloud of vapor, or something like the northern lights. It wouldn't look exactly like a brilliantly shining person, that walks around, kneels and prays, raises hands and blesses the crowd, sometimes hovers in the air, is photographed and seen by a million people as a woman shining with spectacular light, sometimes hovering in the sky, often surrounded by angels, doves and circles of stars, shining with light (not to mention the accompanying miraculous healings).

The tectonic explanation is the most absurd thing either of us has ever heard. It can explain nothing beyond the glow. All you and I have to do is look at the pictures to see that that story is false, even without the million eyewitness accounts that prove it absurd.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

if you consider Sunni and Shia Islam to be two different ones (which I think most of them would)

Really? What suggests they do?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Well, Catholicism is the largest religion,

Even if true (and I think there's room for debate, there) , that doesn't mean "most humans have ... heard of him", which is what I said.

http://adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Most humans know other paths. A criticism of one non-central example of a specific sect is not 'an attack on piety".

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well, the fact that they often (not always, but often) hate one another, segregate one from the other, and that you get Shi'ites protesting Sunni officials, and things like that.

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

There was a study on this, an experiment. It was observed that a group of patients that were emphatically and lovingly prayed for did not get better faster than other patients. In fact many of those patients got worse..

If God were to have used His hand in that "study" then would it not have made it to where someone "had" to believe because there was undeniable proof? Then where would faith come in?

its like when people say "If God is real why doesn't he just show Himself to us" Well if God did that every time someone wanted Him to then there would be no faith...and God did come down here once as Jesus but still no one believes...just like it says in the bible: Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Most humans know other paths. A criticism of one non-central example of a specific sect is not 'an attack on piety".

Paths maybe but to Heaven afraid not...... that sounded like Yoda I know

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Oh, give me a break. You saw the pictures. It's clearly the size and shape of a person, with a halo also, again, clearly visible. Hovering over a church, too, "coincidentally" enough. If it was random luminescence caused by tectonic activity, it would probably look like a gaseous cloud of vapor, or something like the northern lights. It wouldn't be a person who walks around, kneels and prays, raises hands and blesses the crowd, sometimes hovers in the air, is photographed and seen by a million people as a woman shining with spectacular light, hovering in the sky, often surrounded by angels, doves and circles of stars, shining with light (not to mention the accompanying miraculous healings).

The tectonic explanation is the most absurd thing either of us has ever heard. All we have to do is look at the pictures to see that they're false, even without the million eyewitness accounts that report differently.

Alas..

1. It isn't clearly anything.. If it was, end of mystery!
2. It wasn't random luminescence. That's the entire point. And why exactly would this luminescence be similar to northern lights? Do you have any idea how remotely different those two phenomena are, effects of tectonic strain and particle collisions in the Earth's magnetosphere?
3. Lief, a million people did not report differently.. a million people might have witnessed this luminescence. The bottom-line is that this is in Cairo, city of millions.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

So, Az, your theory is that God refuses to act because He won't 'give us the satisfaction'?????

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

There was a study on this, an experiment. It was observed that a group of patients that were emphatically and lovingly prayed for did not get better faster than other patients.

Oh, studies, studies. There have also been studies that demonstrated the exact opposite. People can find studies to show absolutely anything; one half of studies contradict the other half. It would not surprise me if there were a study which infallibly demonstrated the moon to be made of cheese. They mean nothing.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Oh, studies, studies. There have also been studies that demonstrated the exact opposite. People can find studies to show absolutely anything; one half of studies contradict the other half. It would not surprise me if there were a study which infallibly demonstrated the moon to be made of cheese. They mean nothing.

So, there you go.

If science is a problem for faith, out goes science.

Coffeehouse, I think you can retire the rational approach, now. You've seen where the card is palmed.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

So, Az, your theory is that God refuses to act because He won't 'give us the satisfaction'?????

And Az, on top of that, that's the entire confusing part about the Christian God. If we were all the creatures of his work, wouldn't we know it deep down? Wouldn't that come as natural as breathing!?

Faith is.. faith. It is not necessarily reality. I don't object to individual faiths, but I object to one individual trying to replace his/her faith with the reality of another individual. That's my problem with religion. That's my problem with the Catholic Church. A monopoly on truth. Unhealthy!

[Azrael]

I only know the basics of this, but if Leaf wants to he can get more in depth with this...I hope he does.

According to C.S Lewis there are three different things that Jesus could have been Lord, Lier, or Lunatic.

He could have been crazy and truly thought he was God but was mistaken and still have died for what He believed He was. Studies have shown that after studying Jesus's word that He was quite intelligent, and no disabilities showed in His word. Thats not really a strong case for this part but leaf can get more into this if he wants.

He could of been a lier. He could have known He was not God, but tricked everyone into believing in Him so that he could corrupt the world. My thought is if he was a lier and knew He was not God then why did He go through all that torture and then death for a lie? Why did He not just come out and say "No im not God, so Cya"

He could have been the Lord the messiah! If he was in His right mind and knew what he was talking about then hes not a lunitic. If He was telling the truth then when he said " I AM THE SON OF GOD!!! then he was not a lier. Thus making Him the one said to come and save us the King of Kings and Prince of Peace!


so say he never said He was God, if your one of those ask for proof He said it and i'll show you.

[Coffeehouse]

I just want to shoot in that it's Lief, not Leaf Azrael. I imagine Lief was trying to spell Leif, as in Leif Erikson, the Norwegian-Icelandic sailor.

[Azrael]

my bad o well im still keeping it leaf