11-30-2006, 12:15 PM | #921 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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11-30-2006, 12:30 PM | #922 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Don't think I said it was either.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
11-30-2006, 12:36 PM | #923 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Btw, anyone esle notice we're way off course? (as earlier pointed out by Fal)
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11-30-2006, 02:18 PM | #924 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Speaking of morality: If the ten commandments are the source of law, and christianity the source of morality, why did the plight of the average person not really change much between 1500 BC and 1500 AD? No matter what the scriptures say, the average person was little more than a slave to the relative few who held positions of power. They could be murdered, raped, abused, etc. by those who lorded over them with very little recourse. And most of these "lords" were, in fact, supported by the very churches of their respective times. 3000 years of abrahamic and later christian tradition did very little to change morality in any real world sense. It was just a bunch of "wouldn't it be nice if the world was like that" philosophy. It was finally social and, more importantly, economic and scientific advances allowing the average person to band together with others through travel and communication that brought about the kind of morality people had philosophied about for generations. And many of those who brought about those changes, like our founding fathers, while accepting the idea of god actually rejected the idea of scripture or organized religion in favor of a more practical, humanistic approach. Christianity did not bring about real world morality, social and economic evolution did. Should we really depend upon that same 3000-year-old tradition to make decisions for us when it failed to deliver so miserably in the past?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-30-2006, 03:51 PM | #925 | |||||||
Quasi Evil
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There is that chance, you realize, that you are imposing an animistic or super-animistic presence onto morality that may not be there. Understandable but incorrect. To me “morality” makes sense biologically and culturally. It does not need a god engine to make it acceptable in our universe. But to you its clear evidence of a higher power while the equivalent behavior in other animals is ignored. But that’s neither here nor there in regards to what you are really saying when you use the term “morality” to justify discrimination against homosexuals so just ignore that tangent there. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-30-2006, 04:09 PM | #926 | |||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-30-2006, 04:12 PM | #927 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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11-30-2006, 06:14 PM | #928 | ||||
The Lovely Hobbit-Lass
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At anyrate, physically, a human may be classified as an animal. I understand that well. But ask a phsycologist: humans and animals are completely different in that respect, for the reasons I mentioned. Quote:
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It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year! |
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11-30-2006, 06:47 PM | #929 | ||||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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BJ has answered part of my thoughts on this already: he says that people act worse when there isn't a "moral society" around them. My point, using the moral relativity POV is that you CAN "justify" being a jerk as much as being "good" Quote:
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Here's my main point: I don't understand how a person who believes in moral relativity can justify his following of some traditional morals other than by saying he doesn't feel like breaking them. Nor can he justify any belief in morals if he does follow them but doesn't believe that they are "already there", other than by saying that they don't produce the desired result. So if this is the way it is, I'm allowed to not give a dang about the stuff you want to go your way, and I can make it so that being evil is the best thing. (You see BJ, I understand this stuff, and I still don't believe it) I'm not saying moral relativists are going to run wild and kill everyone once they've figured out their belief that morals are relative, and I don't believe that they will because I don't believe that morals are relative in the first place, and even if they do, and I think we all really "know" even if we say we don't believe in our knowing.
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 11-30-2006 at 06:48 PM. |
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11-30-2006, 09:07 PM | #930 | ||||||||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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[QUOTE=Falagar]Welcome Aquilonis! This thread needs a sign. "Abandon all hope, ye who enter", or something
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-30-2006, 09:15 PM | #931 | ||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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"Near Mankind to thee, nearer to thee"
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 11-30-2006 at 09:19 PM. |
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11-30-2006, 09:44 PM | #932 | ||||
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11-30-2006, 09:44 PM | #933 | ||||
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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11-30-2006, 10:09 PM | #934 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Well, anyway, Platonic forms are hardly nature. I can see the similarity; something approaches the form of a horse, and thus becomes more fully horse, etc., but there is a difference between that and nature. Nature is inherent, for one thing, not exterior, as a Form. Also, things necessarily act in accordance with their nature, I believe (though I haven't given it too much thought). Please note that my argument is that homosexuality is contrary to the nature of the sexual act, not contrary to the nature of the 'sex-ers', as it were. We can easily violate the nature of something else. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-01-2006, 03:57 AM | #935 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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great job, Hector, Rosie and Gwai!
*gets some more popcorn*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-01-2006, 06:12 AM | #936 | |||
Elf Lord
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I'm just going to add a point about pleasure and Christianity. Quote:
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But Falagar and Brownjenkins, I think joy (that's the word you're looking for if you're talking about Christianity, not pleasure) is one product of the relationship with God. That's one of the fruits of the Spirit. It's not "the" goal, or the utmost emphasis, but it is one automatic byproduct of the relationship with God. If you plant a seed that blooms into a flower, it (depending on the type) will have many petals. Joy would be one of those petals, along with many others. Those petals are automatic results of what is planted, but it's not really a goal. We'd die for Christ because we love him, and many Christians have died in severe agony for Christ, especially in this last century. They die out of love for a person and (as a result of love for that person) out of love for what's right, not out of pleasure. If pleasure were the goal, we'd have abandoned the path of Christianity long ago and embraced more of the temptations the world offers. They are what you'd go for if you're looking for pleasure.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-01-2006 at 06:14 AM. |
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12-01-2006, 12:07 PM | #937 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I'm simply stating the fact that 3000 years of abrahamic tradition and 1500 years of christian tradition did very little, if anything, to change the moral status quo for 95% of the world's population. By comparision, economic and scientific advances in the last few hundreds years have done a lot to address the inequality between the haves and the have nots. It's not utopia, but it's a whole lot better than anything we've had before.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-01-2006, 12:13 PM | #938 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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So I'll repeat myself again as simply as possible: An intelligent person realizes that one's own happiness is effected by the happiness of those around us.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-01-2006, 12:48 PM | #939 | ||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. |
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12-01-2006, 01:35 PM | #940 | |||
Elf Lord
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Here's why: If you are in love with a person and experiencing joy with him now, what's the point of looking forward to loving and experiencing joy with him later? Quote:
My own view is that those who do NOT have a close personal bond with Christ (those who just are looking to an ideal- the ones you've just described) often will be more likely to fall away than those who have a real relationship with Christ. So loving the person (and what's right- you're right that in this case you can do both at the same time) is going to usually be the reason for martyrdom.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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