Theological Opinions

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

So in other words... you don't know. I accept that; but questions that cannot be answered by religion are exactly the thing which makes religion hard to believe in. Not only that it can't be proven, it doesn't fit the world I see around me.

The fact of the matter is, what you see around you when you look at the world is only a tiny fraction of what exists. There are countless mysteries of the universe that are beyond us. Even many of the aspects of who we are, biology and such, are still beyond us. So the idea that there should be spiritual things that aren't all ironed out for our understanding is very much in accord with the world we see around us, the state of which also is in countless ways way beyond our comprehension.

I would say that any religion that was all ironed out and left no mysteries unexplained because of that fact would be very questionable. It would not correspond with the universe of the unexplained that exists around us.

Originally Posted by Falagar

But, as you said earlier, God decides what people do since we don't have Free Will (tm). He decides that a person shall do evil, the person does evil, and God condemns him/her to eternal suffering. Doesn't sound like a very fair deal to me.

I am not convinced that the suffering in hell is eternal. There are passages that talk about the soul being destroyed. It talks about eternal destruction, but eternal torment I've only seen in one scripture in Revelation. That scripture was a vision of John, Revelation 20:10. I could get into discussing that one, for if one considers it to be actual endless suffering, there is a point I would make about it that might make one think twice.

There are many scriptures about hell, but I don't know of any others that talk about the final judgment being a place of torture. The temporary torment between now and the final judgment is described as torture, but the final one on the Day of Judgment I think is annihilation.


God plainly doesn't make all his creatures with the same purposes. Humans are higher creatures than insects. Some creatures are made for high purposes and others for low purposes.

An example from animals: We raise dogs for higher purposes (being our friends and household pets). We raise chickens (to be killed for food) for lesser purposes. Neither choice is evil.

God, infinite in wisdom and perfect in ability to choose, is in a good position to make judgments about the fates of men.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

why is it necessary to have such a strong focus upon accepting or rejecting god?

does what you actually do during your lifetime have any weight at all?

Everyone's life touches the lives of everyone around him or her. Even a life that doesn't touch anyone touches God, since he experiences everything everyone does. I'm not sure what your question means.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

what you, and other christians seem to be saying is that accepting god is all you need to do... as long as this acceptance is sincere, you can be as selfish in life as you want

We must accept Christ and follow him. Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, he must pick up his cross and follow me." And Paul talked about the torment he was in as the nature of Christ in him strove against sin which also was in him. Paul said, "do not take your freedom [in Christ] to mean license!" Jesus talked about all the things people must not do, and what they must do. He set a very, very high moral bar when he said, "be perfect, as my Father in heaven is perfect." There is nothing in the scripture that says we can do what we like because we're saved. Such a view as that is complete lunacy.

We are saved when we accept Christ, but we must continue in him or we will slip aside into destruction.

I know that there are "Christians" who do what you accuse them of. They act as though they have license. They act as though, "once you believe, you're in, and you don't need to follow Christ once you believe in him." James scorned that view in the Epistles. He said, "You believe in God, good. EVEN THE DEMONS DO THAT, CUPCAKE!" Minus the caps and the cupcake .

We are saved from sin. Continuing in sin after accepting Christ is therefore rejecting the salvation we have received.

In my posts, I tend to emphasize and explain the belief in Christ part a lot because that's the part that people don't get. Everyone understands that good people should be spared. I believe that belief in Christ is the door to becoming good people though, the only door, and that's why I feel obliged to give it emphasis.

If a person accepts Christ into his or her heart, Christ transforms that person to holiness. Someone who accepts Christ and then refuses to follow him though has turned away from him.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i understand the sin/repent dynamic if you are a christian... what i don't understand is the need to accept the christian god and/or jesus to be saved

as i said, one could live the life of a mother teresa, but if they happened to be hindu, or buddhist, or muslim, or even agnostic in terms of their beliefs, they would not be saved

thus, living a "good life" alone is not enough... the focus is on how you act and what you believe, not just on how you act

You favor a religion based more on works than on faith. However, I say that works come from faith and cannot come without faith. When Christ enters a person, he saves them from evil. He transforms them and makes them good on an extraordinary level. In heaven, they will be perfect. On Earth, they are "running a race," as Paul puts it, to be transformed. Jesus said, "Anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:27).

Living a good life is enough for God. The point is that no one can live a good life without God in it. You're right that Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and agnostics live good lives by the world's standards, and there also are plenty of "Christians" who also live good lives only by the world's standards. But there are also those who are being transformed by God inside them who makes them holy. Our own efforts can only go so far and cannot create the inner transformation that Christ does. Our own efforts can never be enough to make us sinless. God must do that.

[Nurvingiel]

Interesting posts guys.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The fact that they don't believe in him does not mean that they don't get power from him. I can think my friend is an honest man and receive and spend money he gives me, without knowing he's a bank robber.

The power comes from the One, not Satan.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The fact of the matter is, what you see around you when you look at the world is only a tiny fraction of what exists. There are countless mysteries of the universe that are beyond us. Even many of the aspects of who we are, biology and such, are still beyond us. So the idea that there should be spiritual things that aren't all ironed out for our understanding is very much in accord with the world we see around us, the state of which also is in countless ways way beyond our comprehension.

I would say that any religion that was all ironed out and left no mysteries unexplained because of that fact would be very questionable. It would not correspond with the universe of the unexplained that exists around us.

It's not the unexplained I'm talking about; it's the contradition between 'good God' and 'everyone dies'. [Fine, not everyone: more than 5/6 of the world, as most of the Christians will survive you say] I have problems with 'good God' - 'cruelty in the world'. And why does he have to kill? There must be another way as he is all powerful, mighty, knowing, etc.etc.etc...

It's much easier answering all of the questions with a neutral God existing. Or, rather - no god whatsoever.

An example from animals: We raise dogs for higher purposes (being our friends and household pets). We raise chickens (to be killed for food) for lesser purposes. Neither choice is evil.

Actually, one may as well consider raising chickens only to kill them for their meat in the end an evil act.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

The power comes from the One, not Satan.

How do you know? How do they know?

I've read accounts of people who are coming out of witchcraft experiencing extreme demonic confrontations. This would seem to be evidence that the witchcraft actually is not good or healthy.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

It's not the unexplained I'm talking about; it's the contradition between 'good God' and 'everyone dies'.

That would be part of the unexplained- or rather, the not fully explained.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

[Fine, not everyone: more than 5/6 of the world, as most of the Christians will survive you say]

I didn't say that about Christians. A huge number of "Christians" don't have Christ in their hearts, and will not be saved.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I have problems with 'good God' - 'cruelty in the world'. And why does he have to kill? There must be another way as he is all powerful, mighty, knowing, etc.etc.etc...

Of course there must be other ways. However, I don't believe that there are other ways to accomplish what God wanted to accomplish, which is the creation of followers who have more depth to them and more appreciation of God's nature. We would be simple creations if we had only experienced joy and happiness all of our lives. I think God has higher plans for us.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

It's much easier answering all of the questions with a neutral God existing. Or, rather - no god whatsoever.

As I said before, it's a conclusion based on too small a data sample.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You favor a religion based more on works than on faith. However, I say that works come from faith and cannot come without faith. When Christ enters a person, he saves them from evil. He transforms them and makes them good on an extraordinary level. In heaven, they will be perfect. On Earth, they are "running a race," as Paul puts it, to be transformed. Jesus said, "Anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:27).

i don't agree... i think works come from works... i don't want to be a disciple... i want to be a good person in the here and now... day to day

and the judge of whether i am or whether i am not is the people around me... the society i share my life with

faith does the opposite... it may claim to open eyes to some kind of eternal truth, but i think it often closes eyes to that very real here and now

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Living a good life is enough for God. The point is that no one can live a good life without God in it. You're right that Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and agnostics live good lives by the world's standards, and there also are plenty of "Christians" who also live good lives only by the world's standards. But there are also those who are being transformed by God inside them who makes them holy. Our own efforts can only go so far and cannot create the inner transformation that Christ does. Our own efforts can never be enough to make us sinless. God must do that.

i guess "the world's standards" is enough for me... and i'm not really trying to be sinless, no do i think i want to be... i'm just trying to make the most of my time here... and i think that to do that one must think a lot more about "here" and a lot less about "there"

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Of course there must be other ways. However, I don't believe that there are other ways to accomplish what God wanted to accomplish, which is the creation of followers who have more depth to them and more appreciation of God's nature. We would be simple creations if we had only experienced joy and happiness all of our lives. I think God has higher plans for us.

I'm sure God, as an all powerful being, could create depth to create depth, and apprecation, without the need to murder billions. He could create us complex and let us expirience joy and happiness all our lives.

As I said before, it's a conclusion based on too small a data sample.

It's not like you can prove God is good. Not by what you're said till now.. it's only me who has shown why I think God isn't good, IMO. All you say is that I don't have enough data.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

and i would say that if he truely loved them he would have gone into an awful lot more detail about it

I think it very likely that He did go into more detail about it, but frankly, I think the best indicator that they DID know enough to make a good decision about it can be found in what they did NOT say to God after they did the deed - they did NOT say, "But I didn't KNOW this was going to happen! Why didn't you tell me?" Don't you think that would be the first and natural response to God if what you're proposing (that they didn't understand death enough to make an informed decision) really took place? But no, they never complained about that at all.

And also, remember that this account was written down for people that DID know what death was, so it makes sense to use that word. NOWHERE in the account, or any references to the account, is it said that lack of understanding was the problem. I just can't see that a holy, omniscient God would not realize that they didn't understand, and then when he found out, punish them anyway. Their recorded behavior matches EXACTLY with the behavior of people that KNOW they blew it, IMO.

i know i do with my kids... i don't just say, "that is wrong" ... or even, "i am just saying this 'cause i love you, even if you don't understand" ... i explain to them the practical "why" behind it so they can see the reasoning for themselves... so that they can come to the understanding themselves... it is a much more powerful motivator (IMO )

I think explaining that death would occur is explaining the "why" behind it, don't you?

the practical "whys" seem to be lacking in much of the biblical text

Some of it, I would agree, but not the majority of it, IMO.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

while some do make practical sense, others do not (from my relative pov ), and there's an awful lot of muscle-flexing mixed in... it just doesn't strike me as something a supposedly "perfect being" would say

What would you suggest a perfect being, in God's position, should say?

that's another issue i have with catholicism... i don't think god should draw a line... humans draw the line between right and wrong because we have to live side by with one another... we can not survive without each other, so we must make rules in order to survive

so which human/humans should draw the line? Who should be the judge of whether a person was "good enough" or not? What if people disagree on who should judge (which of course they will)? What if a pedophile thinks he is good enough? He may have many good excuses for his behavior (his parents, his environment, his sexual urges which most people here say people can't control), so why should you condemn him? If you had to pick one being who would be the best candidate for the one to draw the line, who would it be? Or should no one draw the line, and everyone get away with everything?

god (if you accept him as all-powerful, etc.) doesn't have this problem... he has all the time in the world, and all the resources in the world... it seems to me to be somewhat of a copout to say... "here's free will and here's the rules you should live your life by... follow them to be saved, break them and be damned"

i would hope that a true loving creator would put a lot more effort into bringing his creations along... all his creations

When I read the Bible, I see a tremendous amount of effort on God's part. What would you suggest that He do that He hasn't?

i would admire him if he was humble... the bible doesn't paint god as being very humble

How is leaving heaven, coming down to earth as a man, being abused, spit on, tortured, and crucified not humble? Why should the truth be suppressed that God made the universe and everything in it, especially if that is important for our well-being to know?
__________________

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

How do you know? How do they know?

I've read accounts of people who are coming out of witchcraft experiencing extreme demonic confrontations. This would seem to be evidence that the witchcraft actually is not good or healthy.

That would be part of the unexplained- or rather, the not fully explained.

I think a parallel can be drawn between a Witch casting a spell and a Christian praying. The power for both comes from God or the One (and not Satan). Christians and Witches believe that Satan is not the one answering their prayers or allowing the spell to succeed. Why would Satan answer a (good) prayer or help a (good) spell anyway?
By "good" in both those cases, I mean something intended to help other people.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i guess "the world's standards" is enough for me... and i'm not really trying to be sinless, no do i think i want to be... i'm just trying to make the most of my time here... and i think that to do that one must think a lot more about "here" and a lot less about "there"

Me, too. That is most definitely a "problem" with having too much religious zeal - people tend to live their entire lives towards their afterlife and after death rewards, rather than here in the life that they live in. Too much faith is counter-productive. Then again, not ENOUGH faith is dreary. The trick is in finding one's own inner integrity and balance. I think we should have more faith in our "here and now," in this life and this planet and all that it contains, rather than in gods and afterlives and so on, but that's just me.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i don't agree... i think works come from works... i don't want to be a disciple... i want to be a good person in the here and now... day to day

Of course you'll be good by your standards. Most people manage that pretty easily. But I think you'll agree with me that our own standards aren't really good enough. Otherwise, like you point out, the pedophile or Saddam Hussein should be allowed to get away with what they want.

Then if our standards aren't good enough, who's is? Society's? Tell that to Martin Luther King Jr. . God's standard is the only one that really counts.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

and the judge of whether i am or whether i am not is the people around me... the society i share my life with

The majority is a good judge of right and wrong? Or just those people who live nearest you? I suppose if you lived in Germany during World War 2, you would have joined the SS too, right?

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

faith does the opposite... it may claim to open eyes to some kind of eternal truth, but i think it often closes eyes to that very real here and now

This can happen with some people, I agree. Though works alone can do exactly the same, making the people who do them arrogant lumpheads. This says nothing about whether faith does open the eyes to eternal truth or not (though I would point out that the belief is that God does the eye opening, not faith. Faith opens the door for the personal relationship with God though).

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

and i think that to do that one must think a lot more about "here" and a lot less about "there"

Heaven is interesting to think about, but I agree that our main focus should be on here rather than there.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I'm sure God, as an all powerful being, could create depth to create depth, and apprecation, without the need to murder billions. He could create us complex and let us expirience joy and happiness all our lives.

I still think it's very presumptuous to claim "God could have done this better," from the terribly limited perspective we have. Positive lessons and changes do come from suffering. Most of the strongest Christians, most loving and most full of faith, most of the very best of us in terms of behavior, have been people who experienced the most suffering. That suffering changed them and purified them. It made them what they are, made them good and strong. Rightly is it written, "blessed are the persecuted." I know that the reason I cling so closely to the God I love, myself, is because the months shortly before he entered me were very scary, the darkest of my life. The contrast between that horror period and the shining light that followed is the contrast between night and day. God has used that evil period to bless me since, terrible though it was.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

It's not like you can prove God is good. Not by what you're said till now.. it's only me who has shown why I think God isn't good, IMO. All you say is that I don't have enough data.

If you know much about science, you'll know that the simplest explanation is rarely the correct one.

The great sign that God is good is that he sent his own Son to die for our sins and save us. That God himself would come, become one of us and then die for us, to be raised to life and raise us to life with him, is mindblowing love. There is a lot of evidence I could point to that this event really occurred and also that Jesus was God. For all the archaelogical, documentary and statistical data, one can look to the books "Evidence that demands a verdict," and "The Case for Christ." "The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel, is my very favorite book even though it's nonfiction and all about evidence rather than about fantasy. I don't have time to write major posts right now that summarize key arguments he makes, though I think I posted some in the "The Passion of the Christ" thread in the Entertainment forum. You could look there to see some of the arguments on that, and if you respond to them there, I probably will find the time to reply.

Sorry about not having the time to do better for you. I know I always hate it when people refer me to books because they apparently can't or won't respond to my arguments. I can respond with a detailed analysis on this though, and I assure you that the matter deserves a detailed analysis. The subject deserves more than I have time to give it at the moment. Perhaps inked has more time? I know he loves "Evidence That Demands A Verdict."

There's a very large stack of evidence in favor of the historical accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts, I assure you.

Anyway, beyond the historical evidence and the statistical evidence (the odds are calculated at 1 in like 10 with fifteen 0's behind it that he could have fulfilled 70 of the 250 New Testament prophecies that he fulfilled. The statistical data is overwhelming) lies the experiential evidence.

I'll get into that in the following post.

[Lief Erikson]

I'm going to lay all my cards down on this Theological Opinions table, something I've not done since coming to Entmoot. I hope no one gets mad and blasts me for this post. I promise you that it's meant with the best of intentions, and is a truthful narrative of events that have occurred in my life and the lives of those dear to me. I include here some of the most remarkable and personal events I've recorded in my spiritual journal, and also in my life. I do this in the hopes of bringing some of you to beginning to seek God seriously.

How I met God

My own experience of coming to know God, and my relationship with him since have proved to me that he is loving. I'm afraid I get quite emotional about the time I came to know God.

It occurred when I was fifteen. The six months prior to that year were the worst of my life thus far, and I'll tell you why.

First came God's call. I began to feel hungry in my spirit, though I didn't understand the hunger for what it was. It was very strong and potent. It was almost as though I had a second physical stomach in me. That feeling was so strong that a few times I thought about trying to eat more at dinner to fill it, but that could not have worked, for I was full already. It was a spiritual hunger, though it came across as next thing to physical. Around that time, I began to pray to God that he would reveal himself to me. However, I was very afraid that if I prayed, God would not answer. Then, the house of cards that was my Christianity at that time would collapse and the religion that was so important to my parents would be meaningless to me. This was a great fear, so I never set a date for meeting with God, though I did pray that he would come to me.

Shortly after I began praying for the personal relationship with God, Satan sent a demon to destroy me and my family. The demon put compulsions into my head that were not from me. I could be just doing my normal activities, and all of a sudden I had almost no choice but to murder someone who was vulnerable. Overwhelming impulses began to overrun me to murder family members, to kill myself and them. These weren't just idle intellectual pondering, but rather ideas or thoughts that were powerful enough to overwhelm my resistance and make me perform them. Once, when I was standing on the patio to my house, I was holding a hammer and talking with my Dad about our garden. As he bent over to show me a plant, the urge came next to overwhelming, near forcing me to slam the hammer through his skull. I made myself drop the hammer, because I was so close to killing my father.

I did not begin to suspect demonic involvement until the final days before God came to meet me. I had no experience at all, you see, and little understanding of my religion. I was afraid that I was becoming insane, but I was too afraid of going to an asylum to talk to my parents about it.

All I knew to do was resist the thoughts as hard as I could when they came, but it always was a close thing.

Six months of this condition passed, the incidents increasing in frequency, and then God saved me. When I call Jesus my Savior, for me, the first thing I think of is the way in which he saved my physical life. All Christians call Jesus their Savior because he saved us from our sins on the cross. For me, it has another layer of meaning though, one which is very, very strong.

I opened the Bible one day, just flipped it open randomly, and the words seemed to leap off the page. All the words fitted precisely with my situation, were fitted directly to the need and longing in my heart. They were personal mail, a personal letter from God to me. It was not like reading a book. It was like reading personal mail. You know the difference. I could hear God speaking, not with my physical ears, but with just as much certainty as if I had. The experience was so strong that I was thrilled and bubbling about it all day long. I also told my parents about the murderous compulsions I'd been experiencing, and they drew the connection to demons far more swiftly and solidly than I had. They prayed over me, and from that moment on, those compulsions ceased.

That was how my experience with God began. The challenge that demon posed was not quite over, though. A few days later, it came back.

It was night, and I had a nightmare of a door being opened and red ants cascading out. A particularly large one, about as big as my hand with pincers and claws, began to scramble toward me. Something knocked it over on its back, but it righted itself again and came at me again. In horror, I started awake.

My horror doubled then, for even though I was awake, I saw the creature right next to me on the bed. It was an adult's hand's length. The massive insect scrambled down toward my feet and then vanished into thin air.

I went out to the living room of our house and there encountered the demon again. I did not see it that second time, but sensed it powerfully. You know how you can feel where your hand is with your eyes closed, and point right to it with your other hand even without seeing it? It was rather like that. Only I could also feel all its emotions, could feel this entity's hatred and desire to kill.

I banished it in Jesus' name and it left.

Experiences from my relationship with God since

So Jesus was my Savior. However, my relationship with him only began there. After the first experience of meeting him, I met him many, many times. The most beautiful experiences of my life have been experiences of meeting God. Three spring immediately to mind, experiences of power and beauty that excell most of the others.

In one of them, I was sitting at my computer typing away at my spiritual journal, and suddenly I sensed Jesus standing right behind me. Waves of love rippled through me from him, so overcoming that I was reduced to tears. He said, in my head, "what do you want me to do for you?" and all I could answer was, "your presence is enough."

Another experience was rather more amusing. I was sitting on a bench on our patio, and I was thinking rather critically about other Christians' claim that they had experienced the Holy Spirit coming onto them like a fire that through them immediately into rapturous bliss. I was thinking to myself, "that's pretty unlikely, a bit extreme, a bit implausible," stupid me. But the moment those thoughts entered my mind, an experience of rapture descended on me and burned through me like fire. I was weeping with joy, on fire with bliss from God. I knew that the experience could only be from God, that there was no explanation for an encounter of such strength that could come from natural causes.

The third experience was a dream encounter with Jesus. I met him in a garden in the dream. He sailed down a river on a boat and stopped near me. I was standing in a grove. He said to me, "Do you want to come with me?" I answered that I did, and I did more than anything in the world. "If you want to follow me, you must eat my flesh and drink my blood," he said. I was revolted. However, I ended up agreeing and taking a bite from his forehead. There wasn't any massive cascade of blood, but rather he and I were next lying down on the grass, both very happy and full of the Holy Spirit. Then, Jesus took me with him into the boat. He sailed me away then on the river, and a creature tried to swamp the boat, but because Jesus was at the tiller, we evaded it easily.

That dream experience was not a "proof" experience of Christ like the fire of the Spirit was. It was one of my beautiful experiences with God, though.

There is more, much more, for the encounter of God is a relationship and ongoing loving experience. Perhaps I should shift though into mentioning encounters that you'd find more convincing, though, rather than experiences that to me have been the most personal.

A handful of general, politically correct experiences.

I had one experience of being completely unprepared before giving a message from Christ to students of our youth group. I had tried to formulate a message beforehand, but had failed completely. At the moment it was my turn to speak, the Lord abruptly gave me a message and I did wonderfully.

I also have had experiences of words of knowledge from Christians about intimate aspects of my life that I had never revealed or talked about with anyone but God. Those Christians have passed on messages from God that refer to those issues I was going through that no one could have normally known. Once I went to visit Doctor Dobson's Focus on the Family website, and on it I saw a definition of pornography that said it included everything that was created with the intention of stirring lust. That definition started me thinking I would try to resist all sexual desire completely. A few days after, a Christian contacted me out of the blue and said the Lord had told her that I was having issues with pornography resistance. The Lord wanted me not to suppress my masculinity but to heal it. That Christian could never have known about my struggle against pornography. Another incident was where I asked a couple Christians who had the gift of knowledge about spiritual gifts. I said to them, "I've been praying to the Lord for certain spiritual gifts," which was true; I had been praying for knowledge and prophecy. They looked right back at me and said, "there will be some knowledge and some prophecy." That they should have been able to single those two spiritual gifts out for me out of all the 1 Corinthians gifts without knowing about my prayer to God is quite a coincidence- or a gift.

While debate was still going on in the UN over a UN resolution concerning Iraq's refusal to cooperate, the Lord told me that we would go to war with Iraq. He also predicted the insurgency would arise after our victory there, and that a second force would arise that would defeat these attacks. I now draw the link between that second force and Iraq's rapidly growing and stabilizing national army. The Lord also predicted to me that Israelis would be deported from their homes, way before there was any discussion of a Gaza pull-out.

My youngest brother used to experience horrible nightmares most nights. However, I laid hands on him and prayed over him, because I was aware of our blood relationship and what authority in Christ that gives me. His nightmares completely stopped.

My sister had a dream in which the Lord gave her the gift of healing. A few days later, she prayed over my mother's foot, which for years had been causing her pain, and it was healed the next day (no doctors, just prayer).

My grandmother was in church recently and heard the Lord tell her to pray for a woman at choir. This other woman was badly overweight and had severe knee difficulties. She could not walk without a big crutch, and had been so for a long time. For years, her leg had been causing her trouble. She'd had two surgeries on it, neither of which had helped. My grandmother heard God tell her to heal her, so she walked over to her and asked her if she could pray over her. The other lady accepted, so my grandma prayed over her and she was instantly healed. Years' of suffering and walking on a crutch ended. She walked back to her car carrying the crutch on her shoulder.

A much less politically correct experience that I had:

The Lord instructed me to start emailing with a lesbian girl, which I did, and we started a good friendship. I also felt a great deal of compassion for her, for though she was a very loving personality, the Lord showed me in dreams and other ways that she was tormented by a demon of sexual perversion. She could not send me an email without a sexual reference, or some mention of her sex life. The fact that she was a lesbian was one more aspect of this.

When the Lord revealed this to me, I walked outside my house and started praying. I felt the demon withdraw, and asked the Lord about it. I heard the Lord say in my mind, "yes, it is gone." Then I opened the scripture randomly and the first passage I saw said, "a wicked messenger brings destruction, but a trustworthy messenger healing." Through me, the Lord had brought healing.

Shortly after this (though I never mentioned any of my actions to her), the girl realized she was no longer a lesbian. It was very confusing to her that this change had occurred with no explanation she could see.

Of course, one can argue that there was a rational explanation behind it that neither she nor I see (though she, being non-Christian, was looking hard for a rational explanation), but one must admit that this occurring right after my prayer, after her having been certain she was a lesbian for four years is a remarkable coincidence. And whether one thinks that it's a coincidence or an answered prayer, this is another evidence that sexual interests are not determined genetically.

P.S. Readers, I'd appreciate your not responding only to this miracle while ignoring the main points I'm making.

A handful of childhood experiences:

When I was a child I saw an angel.

My older sister woke up one night and saw Jesus in our room.

The Lord saved my life from an electric fence when I was very little. My grandparents and parents were standing talking while I started climbing on an electric fence. They snatched me off when they saw me doing it, but my grandpa was puzzled because he had been sure the fence was on. He touched it and received a massive electric shock.

A friend of the family, when she was about eight, was trapped under the water in a pool party and couldn't breathe. The Lord enabled her to breathe underwater, until she broke surface.



I realize that with some of the experiences I have related, people can argue that they're coincidences. People also can point out that there have been a very, very large number of unanswered prayers made in the world, some of them also by very strong Christians.

However, this ignores an important point. Those people around whom these coincidences occur tend to keep experiencing more and more of the same coincidences. Those people around whom prayers aren't answered often continue to lack in answered prayer. These are general points. There are certainly exceptions. However, the probability that chance is involved lessens considerably when one considers that those people around whom one or two "miraculous" or coincidental healings occur, more and more of the same occur. These same people tend to have active prayer lives that have numerous other day to day answered prayers, for example. The point is that the idea that the unanswered prayers in some way counterbalance the answered prayers is flawed, because the people who have answered prayers keep daily getting answered prayers, much of the time, while those people who don't get answered prayers generally continue to keep not getting answered prayers.

It is written in the scripture, "the prayer of the righteous man is powerful and effective." This is born out in experience, though of course there are times where even the righteous man doesn't have in mind the same things God does, and so the prayer goes unanswered.

I brought up some of the more dramatic of our family's experiences as evidences. My family is not the only evidence, though. Combine to this personal example millions of people with their host of experiences. In many African churches, for example, there is such a revival taking place that dead people are commonly raised and massive numbers of people experience dramatic healings from lifetime ailments.

I think that Christians' experiences should count as some evidence that God is loving. Much of the relationship with him does not really plunge into astounding miracles like some of the experiences I've mentioned, but is back and forth daily conversation and friendship. Love is the key. I've mentioned experiences of power primarily, because I know that those would have more meaning to you than talking about those conversations with God on which deepening of trust and relationship is built (as they are between humans).



However, I don't want other people's experiences to be all there is for you to consider as evidence. Your own experience is what matters most in this, for you. A relationship with a living, active God is a very real option. If you turn to him and ask him to reveal himself to you (I can see that you are very sincere in looking for the truth in this), he will reveal himself to you. You don't have to believe me. When I was praying that God would reveal himself, I didn't believe enough to set up a meeting, because I was afraid he wouldn't show. Therefore he came to me. I'm just asking you to turn to him and ask him yourself. Don't just ask- demand a meeting.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Me, too. That is most definitely a "problem" with having too much religious zeal - people tend to live their entire lives towards their afterlife and after death rewards, rather than here in the life that they live in. Too much faith is counter-productive. Then again, not ENOUGH faith is dreary. The trick is in finding one's own inner integrity and balance. I think we should have more faith in our "here and now," in this life and this planet and all that it contains, rather than in gods and afterlives and so on, but that's just me.

Ah, a Philip Pullman devotee, I see.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Of course you'll be good by your standards. Most people manage that pretty easily. But I think you'll agree with me that our own standards aren't really good enough. Otherwise, like you point out, the pedophile or Saddam Hussein should be allowed to get away with what they want.

Then if our standards aren't good enough, who's is? Society's? Tell that to Martin Luther King Jr. . God's standard is the only one that really counts.

The majority is a good judge of right and wrong? Or just those people who live nearest you? I suppose if you lived in Germany during World War 2, you would have joined the SS too, right?

it is very difficult to have a discussion when one side can not let go of completely black and white concepts... i don't know how many times i've mentioned that morality stems from the society one lives in... and it's a very "grey" thing... people assassinate "good" people (i.e. MLK), and very "bad" people work their way into positions of power and get their populace behind them for a time due to fear or sometimes even the promise of success (i.e. hitler)

but if you look at the totality of history, the bad guys do not succeed in the long run... MLKs vision was realized, eventhough he did not live to see it... hitler was defeated and the nazi concepts largely defeated as well

human society has become better at encouraging the things that are good for society, and discouraging the things that are bad over the centuries... why? not because of god, but because IT WORKS! the united states is a great example of this very fact

do you really think i would just "join the SS" after reading all i have posted here? and, if not, why do you say it?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think a parallel can be drawn between a Witch casting a spell and a Christian praying. The power for both comes from God or the One (and not Satan). Christians and Witches believe that Satan is not the one answering their prayers or allowing the spell to succeed. Why would Satan answer a (good) prayer or help a (good) spell anyway?
By "good" in both those cases, I mean something intended to help other people.

Thats very thick mud there Nurv.
A witch that casts good spells does so from the pov that he/she has the power to do so. Moses didn't win when he took credit for God's power.
Every "non-Jesus" miracle is performed by God, through a person. God doesn't give a "magic power" to anybody. Thus, anyone who is wielding it, has it from Satan, wether they believe it or not.

Praying is different, you ought not to think you can get what you want by praying for a: raise, a new bike or saving someone's life. You're only hoping that God let's things go right (from your pov...God may think it's someone's time to go or that you don't need a raise).

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Me, too. That is most definitely a "problem" with having too much religious zeal - people tend to live their entire lives towards their afterlife and after death rewards, rather than here in the life that they live in.

I disagree, at least in the case that I know best - my own I've found that the more I grow and understand about God, the better I am here on earth, because I grow to love people more and more. NOT because I"m interested in "rewards", but because my heart grows in love and understanding and compassion.

But I know some people like those you describe - and I would say that their "faith" is not very strong at all.

Too much faith is counter-productive. Then again, not ENOUGH faith is dreary. The trick is in finding one's own inner integrity and balance. I think we should have more faith in our "here and now," in this life and this planet and all that it contains, rather than in gods and afterlives and so on, but that's just me.

Maybe the people that you think have too much faith have found their "own inner integrity and balance".

What is "faith", IYO?

[Rían]

Wow - interesting post, Lief! Thanks for sharing with us - that took some guts to share some deep personal things like that.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

it is very difficult to have a discussion when one side can not let go of completely black and white concepts... i don't know how many times i've mentioned that morality stems from the society one lives in...

and how is that not a black and white concept?

IMO, society shapes how the morality in our hearts expresses itself (for example, it's modest in some societies for women to not wear tops, which would be immodest in other societies - but they still have a concept of modesty) but that in general, morality is the same all over the world, because it's implanted in our hearts by God.

[EarthBound]

Faith = Trusting in what can't be seen

"Seeing is believing, but sometimes, it's the things we can't see, that really matter." -- Train Conductor, The Polar Express

[Rían]

more, please, EB

Just ANYTHING that can't be seen, like the popular Giant Spaghetti Monster mentioned in the evolution/creation thread? Or what type of thing that can't be seen, IYO? (If you don't mind me asking... - I'm asking because I want to hear your opinion)