12-28-2004, 01:02 PM | #901 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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good science does not rely upon anything as an ultimate truth... everything is open to question a good example is ptolemy's geocentric theory of the solar system... he relied upon the "truth" provided by the vatican that the earth was the center of the universe... and he came up with a theory that was actually quite good at predicting the movements of the planets known at that point in time, eventhough the "truth" it was based upon was completely wrong... later solarcentric theories were developed and found to be much more effective... theories that came about from those who were willing to discard accepted "truths" this is the difference: admitting that god is unprovable let's one take the next step and realize that whether or not a creator exists at some point in our universe's history, be it 6000 years ago or 15 billion, inserting that creator is basically saying "science stops here, so don't bother looking any further"... something that is ultimately counter to what science is all about
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12-28-2004, 01:09 PM | #902 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Personally, I don't see why it's an either/or between creationism and theism. Why can't the universe have always existed? Why did God have to create the universe in order to live up to the definition of being God? Is every word of a book wrong because one sentence is superceded by science? Is there another way to read beyond believing every word? I have my own answers to these questions, of course. More than anything I am amazed that the obvious answers are rejected by so many people. It must be that they feel lonely.
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12-28-2004, 01:23 PM | #903 | |
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the key for me is not to look for answers, but to always continue to question... and to search for new questions on the bible specifically, as i've said earlier, i think it contains more than a few "good words"... and with me, the fact that they are "good words" has more weight than who's attributed as the source
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-28-2004, 01:57 PM | #904 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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While it would be easy to attribute this phenomenon as "lazy-induced", it is part of our human psyche. to pitch a tent, or build a castle, lay some bridges (insert preferred metaphor of your choice), etc. as much as it is our lot to question how, why, and what. Many of our leading physicists are as fervent in their preaching as your local preacher is extolling Christ. Which is fair point to make, I believe. (can give examples if needed) There is the matter of self-righteous behavior which can intercede the most docile soul once a person believes they 'know' an answer, but this is hard to avoid . . . even the proclamation of "I question everything therefore I become exempt" would be a suspect statement, IMHO. Hmmm....back to a point, any point ("Someone please make her give a point!" they scream) is that possible answers (theologies) are tried on for personal taste, practicability, and comfort and is much a NEED as it is to question. For myself, I love, believe on, and trust God and his Son, Christ. But I still hope to build a spaceship and soar the heavens in search of chocolate, the perfect cup of joe, and affordable game consoles…LOL
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12-28-2004, 02:18 PM | #905 | ||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-28-2004, 02:59 PM | #906 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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In my opinion, there are many other archetypes in the New Testament along with The Christ. Mary Magdalene is one of the archetypes, too. In fact, the common misconception of Mary Magdalene, not the actual biblical one, is one of the strongest archetypes in western mythology. And then there's the mother of God and the process of baptism and a sacrifice to obtain forgiveness and the list goes on. When you dig into it, the pagan roots are so thick they almost choke out the historical facts.
So I'm not inclined to stake my tent there. I haven't stake a tent anywhere, yet, and I'm not sure I want to. I wouldn't call someone lazy for staking their tent somewhere, but for me it's the journey, not the destination. |
12-28-2004, 03:11 PM | #907 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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I digress, since the discussion of timelines has popped up before. I think it would be important to point out that as a Christian the journey does not end with heaven, but begin anew and different. It is a journey full of hope, suspicion, compassion, love, and most things human, eh.
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt! |
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12-28-2004, 03:23 PM | #908 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-28-2004, 03:50 PM | #909 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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busted!
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12-28-2004, 04:06 PM | #910 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-28-2004, 04:16 PM | #911 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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A quick question to throw into the mix, until I have some time later this afternoon -
Brownie, do you think you are/should be the highest moral authority in your life?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-28-2004, 04:22 PM | #912 | |||
Elf Lord
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Reliance is faith, good sir. The object to which it is directed is indeed material, but it remains faith. Quote:
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I personally think that should mankind obtain the ability to pierce the Big Bang, they will hear "Let there be..."! But all the science between here and that moment will redound to the glory of Him in Whom we live and move and have our being!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 12-28-2004 at 04:33 PM. |
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12-28-2004, 04:30 PM | #913 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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it's also the way i'd like to see others, like my kids, develop... while i certainly shape their morals at the moment, i look forward to a time when they can make all their decisions for themselves... maybe even better ones than i've made at points in my life
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-28-2004, 04:43 PM | #914 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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So if you have decided that it is good to live by "love your neighbor" for whatever reason(s), and your neighbor has decided it is good to live by "eat your neighbor", then you have no problem with his decision, because everyone should be their own highest moral authority?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-28-2004, 04:46 PM | #915 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And also, does this mean that you have a bias against believing Christianity to be true? IOW, because you think you should be your own highest moral authority, and the Bible claims that God is (and rightly should be) our highest moral authority, does that mean that you are unable to fairly evaluate Christianity's truth claims because you don't WANT them to be true?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-28-2004, 04:51 PM | #916 |
Elf Lord
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But of course there are mythic elements in New Testament reality! Have you people not read Tolkien? The Eucatastrophe is the myth made Man in Jesus of Nazareth and incorporating and redeeming and renewing the whole Creation! (Cf, Letters, throughout)!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-28-2004, 05:14 PM | #917 | ||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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reliance, even on theory, is important to science... but by it is by it's very nature it's a "flexible reliance"... faith, by it's very nature, is not flexible Quote:
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however, many others believe that the earth and humanity was created some 6000 years ago, and their time is spent debunking things like fossils and stellar observation... good, because all science is improved by a challenge... bad, because energy could better be spent elsewhere which is why i conclude that "god" is ultimately irrelavent in a physical sense... while one can certainly explore the concept in a philosophical sense... which i admit has it's own benefits... even if god does exist, it tells us nothing about the here an now... or anything we can observe... it is just another name for all the things we can not observe and adds no understanding to how things act and react in the world around us
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-28-2004, 05:23 PM | #918 | |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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12-28-2004, 05:33 PM | #919 |
Elf Lord
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Elfhelm,
To borrow from Dorothy L. Sayers, I think we must take hint from the Gospels that certain of the "miracles" pertain to the unsullied humanity of Christ and that not all are to be taken as pertaining solely to his Godhead! But, I do not wish to hijack the thread since brownjenkins is on the hot seat. What say you?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-28-2004, 05:34 PM | #920 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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we live in a big world with many societies having developed somewhat to completely isolated from one another over a majority of humanity's existance... ten's of thousands of years as i've said before, morals are relative... some societies function in a way where violence towards one another is a part of their daily life... they are that way because it works for them... it's not a problem to them, but it is to me that's where compromise comes in, as opposed to "my absolute truths or the highway", there are certain "moral" paths that more developed societies have come to realize are beneficial for their own survival... and they tend to be more peaceful... when cultures clash they come up with compromises to accomodate differing moral views as best as possible to benefit both sides in the long run... and after coexisting for a while (sometimes a long while), they come to resemble each other more and more... in fact, you see this change even among the more violent instances in history where the "my absolute truths or the highway" approach is taken... the conquerer takes on some of the moral aspects of those they have conquered your example is a bit too extreme to imagine "real world", but... while my neighbor might be use to eating people, when he realizes that the result of such an action might result in the loss of his own life he will think twice... and as a gesture of understanding maybe i'll let him fry up my goldfish
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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