Abortion.

[jellyfishannah]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

She says, "Polls on American attitudes toward abortion show that between 70 and 80 percent already agree that it’s a baby" That, in itself, leaves 20-30% who don't. But, as this may be a matter for science, as much as for belief, even if 100% of people believed something, that wouldn't make it true. It doesn't make it true for religion, and it doesn't make it true for science, either.

She is mainly talking about people, what they are feeling about it, how they are affected. She isn't trying to say "Most people believe this. Ha ha, we win."

And science can hardly say whether a baby is a baby or not. People seem to have their own definitions.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

That'll do

*dances*

[hectorberlioz]

SisCousinAunt, the sarcasm between us is like The Force for Jedis...you can hear it crackling

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Not on my part.

I had a moment of true overjoyousness that I wasn't ducking your spear for once. (You should pardon the image. )

I AM new around here, you know.

[hectorberlioz]

No sarcasm on your part? I can't believe that...some of that stuff of yours was positively rank with it...though I do admit, it's mostly been me

I'm glad you joined. We need more debaters around here. Most of the debaters are on vacation or something...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

but not in the dancing post.

[hectorberlioz]

No! That post DID have sarcasm and plenty of it, admit it.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I AM new around here, you know.

Trying to stoke sympathy eh? Sorry, but after a newbie enters the serious debate (as serious as it gets HERE ,anyhow), there is no sympathy left in me

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

"hector's off topic!"

[hectorberlioz]

I'm the President

[klatukatt]

Excuse me, Mr. President? You're spamming. And off-topic.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by sun-star

You said:



Doing nothing = inactive

D'oh!

OK, well I meant "do very little".

Because it is very little, right? Given the scale of the slaughter that's going on.

[Nurvingiel]

I was thinking about what you said before, about why wouldn't people do something given the scale of slaughter going on, but you and I haven't done squat about Darfur and hundreds of thousands of people have died.

It strikes me as a bit unfair and counterproductive to criticise anti-abortionists for not firebombing abortion clinics eh?

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

D'oh!

OK, well I meant "do very little".

Because it is very little, right? Given the scale of the slaughter that's going on.

I know what you meant and I see what you're saying, but I don't know what the alternative is. Nice as it might be to think otherwise, direct action which focuses on individual targets isn't particularly effective (as the animal rights movement has proved). And it isn't appropriate for this situation: you can't just shut down abortion clinics and think that's the end of it, you have to give women alternatives.

[The Gaffer]

Yeah, OK points taken.

I have done what I can about Darfur. Sadly that is limited to proxies: supporting NGOs etc. My family comes first. However, if it were happening in, say, Cornwall, I would hope I would do more on the direct action front...

The reason for bringing it up is that I believe that, deep down, even the majority of anti-abortion folks don't believe that abortion is the same as murder.

That's not to say that they can't have perfectly valid objections, just that this idea of equivalence with baby-killing should be put to rest. It is offensive to pro-lifers and few genuinely believe it to be the case.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I'm the President

I think it's time for an impeachment. He's not the candidate I voted for any more.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I think it's time for an impeachment. He's not the candidate I voted for any more.

You voted for Hector?? was he the only one running back in 04 ?

[klatukatt]

I don't know who I voted for, but "apparently" I was "running" as some person's "vice-president" according to "Hector's" "memoirs."

That's how trustworthy Hector is.

Still, an impeachment would put too much strain on this board. I don't think it really matters. The election is next year, SUCK IT UP!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

You voted for Hector?? was he the only one running back in 04 ?

That was before he switched parties.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by elven dragonrider

Did you know the crime rate went down substantially when abortion was legal though? The reason is because those babies that would be the ones to do crime were not being born.

I knew that, but I don't consider it or the other justifications, such as the economic and psychological well-being of the mothers, and the mental development of the foetus to be adequate justification for killing an innocent human being.

I don't believe in killing someone before they committed the crime, because they might commit the crime, so to me that kicks the crime level argument. Adoption services are quite open and a workable solution for mothers' children, and if they're currently insufficient to cope with the population boom that would result from an abortions ban, I'm quite willing to pay higher taxes for those children. So to me, that kicks the mothers' wellfare argument.

Economic and psychological stress aren't sufficient justification for killing an innocent human being. If any mother pleaded economic and psychological stress as a cause for her killing her children that were outside of the womb, she'd be certainly condemned anyway in any court of law.

The argument regarding the mental development of the child, to me, is kicked by the science of foetology, by which scientists now know that after the first trimester, the foetus has developed all its organs, including the brain, and the brain is indistinguishable at that point from that of an adult except in size. The development of the growth of a foetus is fluid and at no point is there a major lurch forward at which it becomes a human being, so if abortion is committed at any point in its development, it is strictly arbitrary. Even when the foetus is just four cells, I've heard that it is already at that point self-directing, controlling its own movement. Though I don't know how reliable that claim is. But it's a human being all the way through, and I don't believe in judging a person based on his biology, but rather only upon his actions.

Originally Posted by elven dragonrider

I am not for abortion, but I am for birth control. I think the catholics need to give up expanding their religion and let their people stop having kids so they can afford to eat.

I don't know much about birth control. If it merely keeps conception from happening, I have no problem with it. If it destroys the zygote after conception, I do have a problem with it.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

That was before he switched parties.

I didn't swtich parties, I just disguised my party all along