Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[BeardofPants]

Okay, so the guy chosen to run Iraq is an American? What happened to letting the Iraqi people run it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2802053.stm

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Okay, so the guy chosen to run Iraq is an American? What happened to letting the Iraqi people run it?

You first have to get things started. What do you expect - for us to say "okay - we removed Sadam - see ya later." And leave?

They're working as advisors really more than actually ruling - but there has to be someone to help set up the internal workings of the new government. There are meetings scheduled this week to try get representatives from all areas of Iraq to work on establishing the new government. It has always been stated that there were going to be American advisors for each branch of the government - so i really don't know why you are in shock of it now. I don't think you really paid attention before if you didn't know that this was the plan. This has been stated repeatedly since the war started as to who was going to lead the rebuilding of Iraq (at least here it has). There is still a fight between the Defense Department and the State Department though on which department takes the lead.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You first have to get things started. What do you expect - for us to say "okay - we removed Sadam - see ya later." And leave?

Yes. Wasn't that the goal: remove him before he uses WMD? In any case: why not an Iraqi? Surely there must be some exiled ones in the US that are Bush-friendly? And where is the UN? I thought they had a "vital" role to play?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It has always been stated that there were going to be American advisors for each branch of the government - so i really don't know why you are in shock of it now. I don't think you really paid attention before if you didn't know that this was the plan.

There is a HUGE difference between advisors, and an American running the interim govt. And I seem to remember Dunedain stating earlier on in this thread that an Iraqi party had already been hand picked to pick up where Saddam left off.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
es. Wasn't that the goal: remove him before he uses WMD?

The other goal was ALWAYS to establish a free democracy in Iraq - but it's not going to happen over night. Now that we removed Hussein and prevented him from using WMD - do you think we should just leave Iraq in the state it's in and tell the Iraqis - "good luck!"?

In any case: why not an Iraqi? Surely there must be some exiled ones in the US that are Bush-friendly?

Yes - but they need help too. Each department has been assigned an American advisor to work with the Iraqis in those areas to develop those departments. Also - Washington isn't sure if an exiled Iraqi is really right for the role - if he's not accepted by the people then democracy won't get off the ground and it might cause a civil war. Ahmed Chalabi may be acting like he's the next leader of Iraq - but Washington isn't so sure yet. They don't know how he'll be received in Iraq, but he will have a role.

And where is the UN? I thought they had a "vital" role to play?

They are - supporting the humantarian aid process. They're not going to have a role establishing a new government. It's Chirac who thinks that the EU and the UN will have a greater role then they will. As if he has any say.

There is a HUGE difference between advisors, and an American running the interim govt. And I seem to remember Dunedain stating earlier on in this thread that an Iraqi party had already been hand picked to pick up where Saddam left off.

Yes they are - and they're part of the meeting that is being held in Najif (I think that's where the meeting is beign held) on Tuesday. It will also include many local leaders who are being chosen right now.


There have already been many meetings WITHIN Iraq between Americans and Iraqis to prepare for the new government. Maybe your news just doesn't really cover it too much though.

The 4th infantry has left Kuwait to try reestablishing civil order in Baghdad. If Turkey had let us come in and create the northern front - these military units would have already have been in place to prevent the looting. Instead they had to go all the way around and finally land in Kuwait. Supposedly we do have humanitarian aid coming in through Baghdad airport - but no way to really distribute it yet. Some Iraqis have also met with American troops and are now fixing up the city and getting things back into working order.

It's been only 4 days since the fall of Bahgdad and there is still fighting going on - as demonstrated last night.

I am upset that the hospitals and the museum were ransacked. That is just plain vandalism.

Bush, Blair see U.N. advisory role

BELFAST, Northern Ireland (CNN) -- U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair see an advisory role for the United Nations in a post-Saddam Iraq, a senior U.S. administration official has told CNN.

...the U.N. will act in an advisory capacity to the Pentagon-controled Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Aid, as the new agency builds an interim Iraqi authority made up largely of US government advisers and military personnel and then phases them out, a senior administration official confirmed.

Annan appointed a special U.N. envoy -- Rafeeudin Ahmed, 70, a longtime U.N. official from Pakistan -- to coordinate Iraqi reform efforts with the Bush Administration.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I am upset that the hospitals and the museum were ransacked. That is just plain vandalism.

Yes, that was a terrible loss. The pieces in that museum can never be replaced.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Yes, that was a terrible loss. The pieces in that museum can never be replaced.

They also ransacked the National Theatre too. The destruction of the things which represented the regime is understandable - but the Iraqi heritage and history is just completely beyond understanding. All that ancient history lost and destroyed. They said it was billions of dollars worth of artifacts.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They said it was billions of dollars worth of artifacts.

Yeah, and it wasn't just the loss of valuable artifacts, it was also the loss of a LOT of information about the so-called cradles of civilisation - things I remember studying photos of in my ancient near eastern history classes: Sumerian Bronzes, cuneiform tablets - lost. I don't care how cowed a people are under a regime - there's no call for that.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Yeah, and it wasn't just the loss of valuable artifacts, it was also the loss of a LOT of information about the so-called cradles of civilisation - things I remember studying photos of in my ancient near eastern history classes: Sumerian Bronzes, cuneiform tablets - lost. I don't care how cowed a people are under a regime - there's no call for that.

Well a lot of it was stolen and will probably eventually turn up on black markets/art-history markets from foreign dealers. It's a good thing since those artifacts will come back, but it's a bad thing cuz then they will extort those pieces. It's a shame though either way, especially on those artifacts simply destroyed.

Did anyone else see or read anything about the Zoo? I was watching a report the other night and some Marines came across the Zoo and they said the animals were so malnourished and basically just sitting there skin and bones. It included tigers, lions, monkey's, etc... The marines tried their best to feed them and all that but they just didn't have enough food for them, so they put some of the smaller animals in the cages with the larger one's. It's unfortunate they had to do that, but there was no other way to feed these starving animals. I also saw a picture of a marine giving a monkey the food from his own food pack...

[Dúnedain]

hehe I thought this was funny

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Well a lot of it was stolen and will probably eventually turn up on black markets/art-history markets from foreign dealers. It's a good thing since those artifacts will come back, but it's a bad thing cuz then they will extort those pieces. It's a shame though either way, especially on those artifacts simply destroyed.

Yeah but the most famous pieces are some of the most important pieces in the history of mankind. They can NOT be sold openly. They are too famous. So they will go in the hands of rich private collectors who will not let anyone know they own them. Theyll lock them away somewhere and we wont see them again perhaps for a generation or two or ten. Its so frustrating....

Oh and apparently this was an inside job. There was an Iraqi "art gang" that had been slowly taking ancient art through their contacts at the museum for years and now figured this was the time to just go ahead and take it all before it was too late. other pieces (like the jewelry) will be taken apart and the pieces sold seperately. This is perhaps more devistating then the destruction of the giant Buddahs in Afghanistan by the Talaban.

[Lief Erikson]

Last night I watched a large part of a documentary that was on on TV about chemical and biological weapons. (Shudders) Horrible, horrible stuff. They got across the dangers pretty well, as well as the history of those weapons' use and development.

You know what, even with all the wars and violence of our time, that movie has really made me feel that we live in a very peaceful day and age. There is so, so much potential for terrible violence in the world. With all these dictators, with the accessibility of chemical and biological weapons, and the fact that nuclear weapons probably will spread.



Revelation's description of the End Times catastrophies sounds all too real. "The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water- the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."

Sounds like a series of chemical warfare attacks. Then "A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur . . ." And worldwide, people being tortured by what sounds like nuclear radiation. And "There came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurtled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up." "something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea was turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."

I doubt that those and the other catastrophies will happen in my lifetime, but I feel like I'm living in the time where the End Times are being set up. Maybe a few generations after me, they'd come. But what's scary is that those things have so much potential to happen now, whether the Bible is accurate or not. The potential for worldwide disaster is constantly growing stronger, as time goes on.

I really hope President Bush doesn't mess up with this Israel/Palestinian issue. I think there's a great danger of it, but that roadmap sounds good to me.

However, if Israel refused to give back all the territories asked of them by the roadmap, I think that we wouldn't enforce it. And the Palestinians, if they refused to act on the roadmap, we would be willing to use force to procur their cooperation. That whole situation is going to be very difficult and it has so much potential to explode like a keg of dynamite.

[Earniel]

They burned the libraries in Badgad! Looted them and torched them! I just can't understand why they have so little respect for their own past and culture. Why couldn't this have been prevented?

[Lief Erikson]

Our troops weren't organized for policing yet. We still aren't even fully organized for that, though we're doing the best we can. The population of Baghdad is about five million. That is far, far more troops than we have in all of Iraq at the moment, and these troops are better trained for military purposes than policing. So although we did plan for this beforehand and those plans are coming into action, it's just a very tough process.

[Earniel]

Just to be on the safe side here, I'm not accusing the Americans of incompetence or anything, Lief. It's just that since the war in Bagdad is practically over, I feel this disaster could and should have been prevented somehow. I really hope order gets restored as quick as possible.

[Lief Erikson]

I hope and pray so too.

It's so wonderful how well this war has gone in Iraq. The technology and skill with which our troops fought is incredible; I'm just so delighted that the casualties were so low in the war. You know what the expected Iraqi civilian casualties were that the UN said? 500,000 was the minimum. (Shakes his head) It's just awesome how few lives have been lost, considering.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Just to be on the safe side here, I'm not accusing the Americans of incompetence or anything, Lief. It's just that since the war in Bagdad is practically over, I feel this disaster could and should have been prevented somehow. I really hope order gets restored as quick as possible.

lol it's war, I mean what do you expect? Our job wasn't to fight resistance and at the same time protect buildings from being looted, that isn't the objective. Now that fighting has died down a bit it is another story, but honestly I am sick of hearing people saying, "The US should have stopped it" No that's bs, the US was fighting to stop an evil dictator and save a country from oppression, but I guess that just isn't enough. That is the thing, no matter what good the USA does there is always some "bad" brought out instead.

P.S. I am not saying you are saying this Earniel, I am just commenting in general because you see it all over the news right now and its bs in my eyes...

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
lol it's war, I mean what do you expect? Our job wasn't to fight resistance and at the same time protect buildings from being looted, that isn't the objective.

actually they (the american military big shots) met with the historians and the museum people from all over the country and all over the world and they emphasized how very important keeping the artifacts safe really was. Because of what they represented. and they agreed they would defend the museum because of that. because they iraqui care takers felt there might be a run on the museum. they had predicted this and still nothing was done. its an incalculable loss. its a devistating loss. and it could have been prevented as was previously planned. This didnt come as a surprise.

[Lief Erikson]

Of course, we do not know all the facts. It might look plain and simple that we should have sent people over to guard those specific places, but we don't know everything that was happening on the military side. The Iraqi people and the people of the world aren't cutting the American military even the slightest amount of slack. Condemning the American flag's being put on Saddam's head for a moment, condemning the demands against Syria, condemning our "occupation", and condemning our not policing and bringing in humanitarian aid to a city of 5,000,000 people within the first few days of our taking it.

Of course, considering the state the Iraqi people are in, I don't blame their getting mad more easily. They have good reason to be, and we can't forget that they're suffering under extreme circumstances. That is the lack of electricity and water. I'm so glad that we've gotten the water systems working in most of Basra; the situation there isn't looking so critical anymore. I was really worried about Basra, but it looks like it's well under control.

[Tanoliel]

The fighting sounds like it´s mostly over....but I don´t want to hear about "victory" until more problems are fixed....