03-08-2004, 11:25 AM | #901 | |
Elf Lord
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Seriously, I've wondered why YECs say that dinosaurs and other extinct creatures must have died after the Flood- couldn't at least some of them have died between the Fall and the Flood?- it would give a little bit more of an expanded timeline to work with.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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03-08-2004, 02:14 PM | #902 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-08-2004, 02:27 PM | #903 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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We're covering genetics in Forest Plant Biology right now. We're not going into too much depth, but it's very interesting.
I asked my professor who studies genetics whether most mutations were beneficial, harmful, or neutral. She said about 10% are beneficial, and some are neutral. Though most mutations are actually harmful - the organism is less fit because of it, the organism isn't necessarily so unfit that it will die. If it is, those genes obviously will not be propogated anyway. Thanks for inspiring me to ask that guys, you made me look smart. (She also said that we'll go into this more in later lectures.) This is possibly not relevant but I found it interesting. The amount of DNA an organism has (counted in basal pairs) is not related to its complexity. Humans have 3 billion, and trillium (a flower) has 100 billion. Bacteria have between 600'000 and 4 million - since they replicate so quickly, there would be selection around not copying useless genes. Anphibians have 65 billion. The other interesting thing is that frog (and some other anphibian) eggs are highly susceptible to UV radiation, causing extreme mutations. There have been a surprising amount of two-headed frogs born, and even a three headed one. It seems that the frog population is declining. I think that the same radiation that causes the mutations also erodes the DNA and/or affects the frogs' ability to reproduce. (I can't imagine having an extra head or two would be useful either, it would probably be a hinderance. Three-headed giant from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" anyone? ) Here's our course homepage, you can read the genetics notes there if you want.
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03-08-2004, 02:53 PM | #904 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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The most common mutations in frogs seen lately seems to be the growing of a multitude of legs or none at all. (Although the BBC website sported an interesting article about a three-headed frog just a few days ago I think) Yet this particular mutation [the leg deformities] has recently been linked more to infestation of a parasite than UV radiation alone. The same with the global dimishing of frog populations, UV radiation is probably only one of the factors that play here. Deseases like the cythrid fungi, agricultural and chemical pollution, habitat loss, and predation or competition by imported frogspecies also play a role. Though, and that is of some importance IMO, I have not come across any evidence that these mutations would be passed along from parents to tadpoles.
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03-08-2004, 04:44 PM | #905 | |||||||
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And on genetic burden, here's a quote from the Institute of Creation Research website - Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-08-2004 at 04:47 PM. |
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03-08-2004, 04:57 PM | #906 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I so very much wish that both sides could get together and look at each bit of evidence together, in the light of both theories, and see what is the better fit. But both sides, and esp. the evolutionists, have too much vested in their theories (and I say "esp. the evolutionists", because as I said before, if evolution eventually becomes the more likely scenario, it would not destroy the evidences for the Christian faith; but if creationism (or intelligent design) becomes the more likely scenario, it CERTAINLY destroys the faiths of atheism and agnosticism ... ) And I never got into the whole idea of irreducible complexity, which is an important part of Creationism, and which is evidence against Evolutionism ... or did I? I don't remember - it's been awhile since I wrote that mega-post on evidences for Creationism ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-08-2004, 05:09 PM | #907 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, one COULD say that we've seen millions of demonstrations that on earth, acceleration is 32 ft/sec*sec, but the NEXT time, it might suddenly become 100 ft/sec*sec. But then you might as well just hang up your lab jacket and go home and do nothing. The accel. figure is a proven scientific fact - it's observable, repeatable, measureable. But altho a fossil is in the present, the actual animal is NOT ... and this is important. The actual animal is just an educated guess. And in the case of humans, especially, it's more guess than educated, IMO - some reconstructions, down to hair on the head, are based on one fragment of a jawbone ... and this fact "somehow" manages to often get overlooked ... So yes, make your best educated guesses based on what IS available, but please be sure to state what they're based on, and please do NOT misrepresent things as facts, that are NOT facts. And again, I wish the huge amount of scientists that are assuming the underlying premises of evolutionism to be true, could also look at creationism ... but they won't, mostly because of peer pressure, IMO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-08-2004 at 05:11 PM. |
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03-08-2004, 05:10 PM | #908 | |
the Shrike
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03-08-2004, 05:13 PM | #909 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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No, see quote. I think the recessive factor is important. Also from what is observable, genetic flaws are accumulating ... and again, please remember the HUGE amounts of time required by evolutionism...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-08-2004, 05:13 PM | #910 | |
Quasi Evil
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If you look at the sheer abundance of redundancy in the genetic code you have a massive field of essentially “sterile†genetic material that can be mutated to no effect to the organism. So point mutations in these protein encoding genes will not actually alter the amino acid sequence of the protein. Such synonymous mutations are therefore likely to be NEUTRAL not harmful. So think of it like this: a random mutation is much more likely to occur to a part of our genetic code that doesn’t matter anyway. These mutations are by definition neutral. Since they don’t effect the survivability of the organism one way or the other. Now SOMEtimes the mutation can occur in a part of our genetic code that IS utilized. But these are fewer. So I cant really get my head around the concept that most mutations are harmful to the organism when most mutations by definition don’t have any immediate impact on the organism one way or the other. Sometimes creationists ignore that fact that there is this redundancy built into the system. Its like saying whenever I throw a dart at a dart board I effect the bulls eye as long as the dart sticks. Well no you don’t effect the bulls eye. You still have to HIT the bulls eye. Most of the darts fall harmlessly into the surrounding region. Do we say that most of the throws are bulls eyes? Now the confusion may be in how you classify a “neutral†mutation. Some people don’t count those made in “junk†DNA which may be as much as 90% of DNA. But the problem is theres a real gray area as to what is junk DNA and what isn’t. So you have to be real careful in how you measure it. And take into account things like neutral drift and stuff. It gets real hairy. But just keep in mind that neutral mutations serve as a bench mark for understanding evolutionary rates, and they lead to the notion of a molecular clock to describe genetic evolution. Oh and also keep in mind that theres a monkey wrench in this discussion that we haven’t touched on yet I don’t think. Are people aware that mutations can occur in higher density on certain regions of a genome? “Hot spots†they call them. So natural selection may also operate at the level of gene location, relegating genes to different mutational genomic niches according to their function.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-08-2004, 05:15 PM | #911 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'll see if I can get that one in - I"m not sure what the format of the field trip is.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-08-2004, 05:18 PM | #912 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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ANd some new people joined up - I'm trying to mostly refer them to my mega-post, but am trying to quickly answer some of the questions. Go away if you don't like it, you pesky dinosaur! *swats IRex away with an industrial-sized fly swatter*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-08-2004 at 05:20 PM. |
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03-08-2004, 05:22 PM | #913 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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if one finds intelligent design to be true, yet places it back as far as something like the big bang, it doesn't effect evolution at all evolution can coexist with god, but it cannot coexist with the genesis story so i'm not too sure who may have the greater vested interest here... the debate is not about the existance of god... it is about how mankind came about
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03-08-2004, 05:25 PM | #914 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-08-2004, 05:29 PM | #915 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-08-2004, 05:29 PM | #916 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-08-2004, 05:33 PM | #917 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-08-2004, 05:35 PM | #918 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i'm kidding, but also serious... what is there to study about creationism? all i see are people trying to debunk evolutionary theory (even when you refuse to answer my questions and point me to other posts )... which is a good thing btw... it is scientific method and helps to people to improve their theories and how is the idea that god created two humans 6000 years ago any less silly than arguments about illusions?? both ideas are based on the same premise "we can't know how life came about" the idea of science is to try to find out
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-08-2004, 05:39 PM | #919 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Altho if people complain about how did God get here, I complain about how did the raw material for evolution get here. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-08-2004 at 05:47 PM. |
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03-08-2004, 05:45 PM | #920 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The human body is so amazingly complex - heck, even a single-celled animal is INCREDIBLY compex!!!! - and the balances required to keep things going are mind-blowing. A friend of mine, a nurse, has a friend that is probably now dead - she was perfectly healthy to look at, but something went wrong in her brain, and now she's on machines to live but is basically dead. ONE small thing went wrong, and she's dead. And evolutionists ask us to believe that billions and billions and billions uncountable things "accidentally" went right, in complete coordination, while tossing out the even more things that went wrong? I just don't think it's credible.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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