Should evolution be taught in schools?

[HOBBIT]

oh sorry, you didn't want your stuff quoted. my replies are basically quick and not extremely thought out - but i wanted to get my thoughts in:P so there may be some errors.


i also don't agree with that whole "my scientist is better than yours" I'd be more likely to say "your scientist is not actually a scientist"

oh well, i must sleep now and i'm sorry to see you leaving this topic rian, because now this topic will most likely die.

[Rían]

So before I go off and re-find some links, I just want to present again that I think that CBID is "based on a REASONABLE premise from observing the world around us" (from my point 4).

Now many of you have probably heard of the "watch on a beach" analogy (or something like that, don't know exactly what it's called). It goes like this - you're walking down a beach, looking around at the scenery - driftwood shaped by the forces of nature, stones shaped by the forces of nature, on and on, and then you see a watch lying on the sand. Do you think "oh, look at this watch shaped by the forces of nature! How lovely"??? NO! Of course not! You instantly realize that there is an intelligent being behind the design and manufacture of this thing.

Now look at the world around us. It is complex! It's incredibly complex, with completely different things tied together and working together in harmony(like the water cycle).

So I ask: is it reasonable, based on observing the world around us, to think that there might be an intelligent designer/manufacturer behind things?

I think it is eminently resonable.

Now, at this point, it may be reasonable, but it is also outside the realm of science.

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At this point, I'm going to start researching the links. I would like to ask the people on this thread to please answer my question - "is it reasonable, based on observing the world around us, to think that there might be an intelligent designer/manufacturer behind things?" If I get some "yes" answers, then I'll share the links here. If I don't get some "yes" answers, then I'll just PM them to Cass, who very reasonably and intelligently asked to see the data behind the CBID theory before she could answer my question about the integrity of the CBID scientists.

I hope some of you will honestly answer "yes", because I really believe it is a very reasonable thought, and I think that anyone that honestly thinks about it will answer "yes". However, I think that many people don't answer "yes" solely because of fear - peer pressure fear, mostly, but some other fears, too.

Any takers?

[HOBBIT]

I do respect your opinion.

But just because things are complex does not mean that there has to be a super being behind it all.

I see where you are coming from.

I just don't see it as very reasonable - i see evolution as being way more reasonable. It is possible though.

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
oh sorry, you didn't want your stuff quoted. my replies are basically quick and not extremely thought out - but i wanted to get my thoughts in:P so there may be some errors.


i also don't agree with that whole "my scientist is better than yours" I'd be more likely to say "your scientist is not actually a scientist"

oh well, i must sleep now and i'm sorry to see you leaving this topic rian, because now this topic will most likely die.

NO, NO, NO, HOBBIT! You must have not read my next post!!!! That was a repeat of my final post from the last go-round, and the ONLY reason I asked to not be quoted back then was because I was not going to be around to defend it!!!

Quote me now all you want to!!

I'm not leaving yet

I think I better do some edits to make that a little clearer.

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
But just because things are complex does not mean that there has to be a super being behind it all.

I completely agree with you!!!

But is it a reasonable thought that there MIGHT be an intelligent being behind things? And again, at this point it is still completely outside the realm of science.

[Rían]

OK, I added a big note to the post above the reposted post (if that makes sense). I tried to add a few explanatory sentences to the post itself, but I kept hitting the post length limit I hope it's understandable what I did now; is it?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
It goes like this - you're walking down a beach, looking around at the scenery - driftwood shaped by the forces of nature, stones shaped by the forces of nature, on and on, and then you see a watch lying on the sand. Do you think "oh, look at this watch shaped by the forces of nature! How lovely"??? NO! Of course not! You instantly realize that there is an intelligent being behind the design and manufacture of this thing.

Of course you're not thinking "Oh, look at this watch shaped by the forces of nature! How lovely." You're thinking "Hah! Some idiot lost a perfectly good watch here. Well it's mine now!"

Sorry, couldn't let it pass.

The basic point is that a watch is a lifeless thing. You can't use this example to explain that complex living things can or can't be intelligently designed.

I don't argue whether or not there is an intelligent designer. My point is if there was one, he used evolution to do it and started out by working with amoebas.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
The basic point is that a watch is a lifeless thing. You can't use this example to explain that complex living things can or can't be intelligently designed.

But I think you're reading more into my question than is there. I"m not asking for you to conclude a "can" or "can't" here - I'm asking if it's a reasonable thought to think that there MIGHT be an intelligent designer behind the universe, given the complexity that we can all observe. It was reasonable to conclude that the watch was made by an intelligent being; and as you point out, it's lifeless! Life is more complex; is it reasonable to think that there MIGHT be an intelligent designer behind the universe, then? And if you say that it can't be proven, I would agree with you.

(ps - funny about the watch! Let's just hope that the forces of nature didn't bang it around too much, or it won't work anymore!)

[Giroth]

I must say,HOBBIT,you have a thing for disagreeing with me


But anyway,sorry,I DID mean creationism,
and there IS plenty of evidence behind it as well.But you do not know about it like some of us do;like I don't about evoution.

~Giroth

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by Giroth
I must say,HOBBIT,you have a thing for disagreeing with me


But anyway,sorry,I DID mean creationism,
and there IS plenty of evidence behind it as well.But you do not know about it like some of us do;like I don't about evoution.

~Giroth

oh ok, you just "know" this evidence then. Would you like to share this "evidence" with the rest of us?

I am actually trying to understand this "evidence" for creation, whereas you are openly ignoring the evidence for evolution.

[Giroth]

heheheheh,disagreeing again?


Well,I listened to YOUR evidence for evoution,though I didn't believe it.So,here is MY evidence.......you also don't have to believe it

Now I'm no expert on all this,
but places from the Bible do exist,
for one thing........and some events in it
have been proved true.......the ark found on a mountain,the covenant,
ect.........so that means that what it says IS true............including that about creationism,is my point.The
Bible has plenty
of truths in it,and even about the future and what is happening now.
I know that is not what we're talking about,but my point is that the Bible
is correct,and since the Bible also
talks of creationism,
it is also true........

Butt something we can both say is this;
Both you and I have NOT experienced full truth of what had happened in the beginning,so we follow that which we hear and believe.
We are even.
I'm not telling you your wrong...I just disagree.


~Giroth

[HOBBIT]

Yes, I agree that no one knows the answer.

That is your proof? Places in the bible exist therefore the whole thing is completely true? That is hardly evidence to support creation by supreme being.

The bible is loosely based in fact - many of the cities mentioned in it actually existed and many of the kings - but what does that prove? there are also many historical errors in the bible. Like some of the kings did exist but not in the splendour as described in the bible and some didn't exist at all. Some cities were built much later than as mentioned in the bible. These cities existed when the thing was written, so of course they were mentioned.

Also, the exodus from egypt has been historically proven - it happened. Same with other things.

But this does not prove the existance of god or is really "evidence" to creation.

You are basically saying that you believe the bible is complete truth and this is proved by the facts that it is loosely based on fact. This makes no sense. The creation story could just as likely been made up by the people writing the bible and that would not effect the rest of it.

If you do not understand this how about this:
The city of Troy has been found - the city from Homer's Odyssey - by your logic, everything from the Odyssey is factual - hmm cyclops exist? Sirens (sp?) exist? All the other fantastic creatures exist? I think not!!

Also, Greece and Rome, both ancient cities exist. These cities are in Greek and Roman mythology - does that mean that you believe that Zeus, Hates, and Posiedon exist??


do you see what i am saying? i could come up with at least a dozen more examples...those are just things off the top of my head

How about some 'real' evidence. There, i have heard yours...what do you have to say about that...

[HOBBIT]

oh and ps - the ark has NOT been found. There is a block like shape at the top of Mount Arrarat taken by satalelite photos. It is NOT VERY CLEAR AT ALL and is PROBABLY JUST ROCK. Some people think it is the ark. All previous expeditions have found ZERO PROOF of the ark. All they have is a picture of maybe nothing.

Hold on - it is still possible that there is a boat up there, but it has in no way been proven in the least, Girorth.


With no proof, another expedition is needed - but wait, the Turkish government won't let anyone go anywhere near the mountain.

[Rían]

I'm still waiting for yes/no responses to this: Is it reasonable, based on observing the complexity of the world around us, to think that there MIGHT be an intelligent designer/manufacturer behind things?

Note that it is outside the realm of science at this point. I'm not talking about science at this point, I'm talking about what a reasonable person might think. I'm not talking conclude, either, as in a final conclusion - I'm talking about thinking that it would be reasonable to think that there MIGHT be an intelligent being behind things, even though it would not be possible to prove its existence (unless it came to visit or something like that).

People - it's a simple question! I'm NOT trying to fool anyone! When have you seen me be dishonest/sneaky? I'm not going to reach thru your monitor and get you in a stranglehold until you say you believe in creationism! If you think that it IS a reasonable thing to think, you can still say (1) but there's no proof for it, or (if I ever get to sharing the links, which I"ll do if some people say it's reasonable) (2) I don't think the data supports it, and I think the data DOES support the theory of evolution. See? 2 responses, ready-made for your convenience!


Hobbit - you said "it is possible though." Can I count that as a 'yes', or not?

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'm still waiting for yes/no responses to this: Is it reasonable, based on observing the complexity of the world around us, to think that there MIGHT be an intelligent designer/manufacturer behind things?

Note that it is outside the realm of science at this point. I'm not talking about science at this point, I'm talking about what a reasonable person might think. I'm not talking conclude, either, as in a final conclusion - I'm talking about thinking that it would be reasonable to think that there MIGHT be an intelligent being behind things, even though it would not be possible to prove its existence (unless it came to visit or something like that).

People - it's a simple question! I'm NOT trying to fool anyone! When have you seen me be dishonest/sneaky? I'm not going to reach thru your monitor and get you in a stranglehold until you say you believe in creationism! If you think that it IS a reasonable thing to think, you can still say (1) but there's no proof for it, or (if I ever get to sharing the links, which I"ll do if some people say it's reasonable) (2) I don't think the data supports it, and I think the data DOES support the theory of evolution. See? 2 responses, ready-made for your convenience!


Hobbit - you said "it is possible though." Can I count that as a 'yes', or not?

Yes, outside of the scientific realm it is possible.

[Rían]

ps - Hobbit, did my explanations/edits clear things up about the copy of my last post from the last go-round here? *Geez, what a a sentence! I'm having trouble wording things *

[HOBBIT]

oh i see yes, you should have just said that to begin with :P

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Yes, outside of the scientific realm it is possible.

Is it a reasonable thing to think, given the complexity of the world around us?

Many things can be called possible, even things that are not reasonable, IMO.

[Giroth]

HOBBIT,you did not fully listen.
I said I was NO expert at it.I am subject to make a mistake.
besides,I said that the bible said things about what would happen today,as well.These things described HAVE happened,and more will come.

Oh and nomatter WHAT you say about evoution or about my belief,
you will never change my thoughts......it's like me trying to explain creationsim to you,and why I believe it.
I am a Christian,
your an athiest,so there you go.....we're bound to clash LOL

~Giroth

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Is it a reasonable thing to think, given the complexity of the world around us?

Many things can be called possible, even things that are not reasonable, IMO.

Reasonable? Yes. It is very reasonable, thats why so many people believe in it without even trying to understand evolution. But it is not good enough for me that everything is complex, so therefore someone created it.... to me it is just a possibility. Evolution is much more reasonable to ME. But obviously, to a lot of people Creation is more reasonable...