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#901 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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Well, considering it was 17 years before the growning evil of the ring was realized, oh, and that the ring was on a chain when Gandalf handled it, it's not at all inappropriate.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#902 | |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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#903 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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But I still question that Gandalf would have intentionally handled a ring that he thought might be The One Ring that included Sauron's own blood and part of his life force. |
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#904 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Maybe it's just me, but this seems like something that should have it's own topic, probably in the Book forum, as it debates the actions of Gandalf in the book. I think it is an interesting thought, and one that could be delved into more in what could be an interesting debate. Although, of course, Cirdan might have just finalized it by mentioning the chain, but if not, I think this could be an interesting topic.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#905 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 463
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Quote:
(warning: links to some garbage that's not PG rated.) Last edited by Entlover : 07-13-2003 at 03:35 AM. |
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#906 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place
Posts: 986
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Here are the excerpts if you do not wish to read the entire article.
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) Last edited by mithrand1r : 07-13-2003 at 08:13 PM. |
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#907 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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I've recently been reading about November's Expanded TTT DVD. From what I'm hearing, the extended version will put to rest the complaints that some people expressed here about the theatrical version:
Examples: "Faramir was too mean" = Faramir gets more screen time and comes off much more like the Faramir from the books. "Where the heck did Aragorn's rescue horse come from?" = The backstory regarding the horse Brego that rescues Aragorn is told in the extended version. "The end story felt rushed." = The ending will be greatly expanded. "How did Frodo, Sam, & Faramir's company get on the WEST side of the city?" = we'll actually see the hobbits leave the city through ancient storm sewers. "What happened to Gimli and Legolas's competition?" = The conclusion will be shown in the extended DVD. |
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#908 |
Sapling
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 12
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My first post.
After tracking this thread stealthily for longer than I care to admit, I finally registered specifically to say to you, BB - you go, Bro! Somehow you've managed to stay focused and level in the face of considerable criticism, some of it inarguably over the top. That's one definition of class; I respect that. At the risk of sounding like some sort of Buddha, so much of our suffering in life is nothing more than us wishing that what we've been given could have been something else, and therefore taking no joy in what is. FWIW, had I directed LOTR, like so many others here, I'd also have choosen to adhere more closely to the books. But I didn't. The movies are what they are. They please my family and me greatly. I move effortlessly between the books and the movies, digging each yet more for the other. ![]()
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"The ordinary person seeks certainty in the eyes of others and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness." Don Juan - Tales of Power |
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#909 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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You rock, justaregularguy! Any guy who notices how classy I am is obviously a very intelligent and incredibly observant guy!
![]() Part of my love of the LOTR films comes from being disappointed with so many movies in the past. Say what you will, these films have actually lived up to their hype. When the ROTK comes out and blows people away, this trilogy is going to go down as one of the best film series in the history of cinema. |
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#910 | |
Fowl Administrator
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 53,420
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Quote:
You'll notice that all the debate circulates around whether or not the films are faithful to the source. As far as filmmaking values go, the praise for LOTR has insofar been near unanimous - I cite scores little shy of 100% on Rotten Tomatoes as my evidence. On the other hand, I don't think people are going to be unanimously blown away by ROTK, because the stumbling block of adaptation remains. The people who aren't happy now with what's changed are still going to be unhappy when they see the absence of what happens to the Shire. I do not think this debate here - on the faithfulness of the films to the book - is directly connected to the LOTR films' inherent cinematic virtues.
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All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
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#911 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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We already know that the Scouring of the Shire is not part of ROTK. Tolkien fans who understand screenwriting and movie-making will give PJ a pass on it. Of course, we'll have some purists who will not.
But the scouring aside, Jackson has said that ROTK is the most faithful adaptation of all three films. If this is true, then it is hard to imagine even the most die-hard purist not at least acknowledging that this film series captured the spirit of Tolkien's great work. Some people are going to always whine that Tom Bombadil and Glorfindel should have been included, but no adaptation could have pleased everybody. Frankly, it is hard for me to imagine any group of artists who could have produced a movie series adaptation of the LOTR better than Peter Jackson and company have. Just think about it....PJ got Alan Lee and John Howe....he had a team that made models more lifelike than anything we've ever seen before....he had WETA put their hearts and souls into designing lifelike weapons, sets, and monsters.....he captured the magic of Middle-Earth through Howard Shore's amazing score....he brought together a near-perfect cast.....he filmed it in the perfect Middle-Earth, New Zealand. Now can anyone with a straight face really sit here and tell us that this film series wasn't true to Tolkien!?!?!? If you honestly believe these film-makers weren't passionate about being true to Tolkien's vision, then I'd love to see what your version of truth would be. |
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#912 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 463
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Re the Scouring of the Shire, there's an interesting discussion of that in Orson Scott Card's excellent book "Characters and Viewpoint", where he writes that there are 4 kinds of books, Milieu, Idea, Character and Event. LOTR is a milieu story. "It is the world itself that Tolkien cared most about, and so the audience for the story is going to be those readers who also come to love the world of Middle Earth."
"All the MICE factors are present in the LOTR, but it is the milieu structure that predominates, as it should. It would be absurd to criticize LOTR for not having plot unity and integrity, because it is not an event story. Likewise . . it is not a character story. . . .We should probably praise Tolkien for having done such a good job of working creditable story lines and the occasional identifiable character into a story that was, after all, about Something Else." But PJ has turned it into an event story, which he had to do to meet his obligations I guess, so leaving out the Scouring makes sense -- it takes place after the main events have concluded. |
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#913 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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I really like that take on the matter.
The discussion of what kind of story LotR is reminds me of the talk about Boromir in the thread in the books forum. The argument is that Boromir could have been fleshed out better. But of course the defense is that with so many characters, fleshing them all out would cloud the storyline, what the tale is about. IMO, if a character needed to be fleshed out more, I would have chosen Aragorn over Boromir, but again, as you say, it's about something greater than any particular character (not to mention that the hobbits are the most important characters, so his focus is rightly on their development). |
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#914 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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One of Tolkien's central themes was that peoples of different races, languages, and cultures who have historically been distrustful of one another can find fellowship if they will only open up their hearts. It's gratifying to see that Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens understood and completely embraced this in their screenplays. The absence of this essential theme would have been much more troublesome than the expected omission of the Scouring of the Shire events. It's already apparent from the trailer that it will be one of the central, underlying themes of the final act. IMHO, it is why Return of the King will go down in film history as the crown jewel in the greatest film trilogy of all time. |
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#915 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 463
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"One of Tolkien's central themes was that peoples of different races, languages, and cultures who have historically been distrustful of one another can find fellowship if they will only open up their hearts."
True. But it would be impossible to make these movies without recognizing that theme. You couldn't get away from all these dwarves, elves, etc being flung together in adversity. |
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#916 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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#917 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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ARAGORN
The screenwriters and Viggo have done an incredible job of bringing Tolkien's character of Aragorn to life.
As is ususual around here, some of the literal interpretationists confuse plot deviations for the sake of filmmaking with changes to Aragorn's personality. It is true that changes were made to Aragorn's backstory for the film. But these alterations did not change the type of man that Aragorn was. Aragorn was a very unassuming man who lived in the shadows. He led his fellow rangers and inspired loyalty among his friends by his example, not by openly "acting" as a leader. One of the things that I've hated about earlier movie and radio adaptations of the LOTR is that Aragorn was portrayed as the typical, upfront, "I'm the hero"-kind of guy. It seemed to me that Tolkien made it clear from Aragorn's backstory that it was drilled into him since he was a young man living in Rivendell that he should stay in the background because his life was in danger if the Dark Lord were do learn he lived. Tolkien was not big on 'fleshing out' his characters in the traditional sense. This is not meant as a criticism, just an observation. It could be argued that Eowyn is the most fully realized character he wrote in LOTR. Having said this, I do believe that the self-doubt that film Aragorn exhibited in FOTR and TTT was true to Tolkien. I find it amusing that in one breath some people here criticize Peter Jackson for making "typical action fantasy flicks" and in the next breath say that a less one dimensional and more fully realized and human Aragorn "isn't true to Tolkien." Once again, the literalists want to have it both ways. Last edited by Black Breathalizer : 10-23-2003 at 07:12 AM. |
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#918 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Durham, England
Posts: 694
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BB mate, they're nice films. They're good films. They're very watchable films. And maybe, as far as the MTV generation goes, they're classic films. But at the end of the day, they're just films.
You're sounding like someone who goes around the Tate and then enthuses about the postcards in the gift shop.
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I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? |
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#919 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: On an Ent
Posts: 29
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Sure, the opposite would be what I would find difficult. The first two movies weren’t true to Tolkien. Further, they weren’t supposed to be. That was never the intention of PJ, so why don’t you give PJ his credits? He wanted to make an action movie based on the LotR, not make THE LotR into a movie, that is clear, why do you have such a problem with that? Do you think that, by itself, PJ’s tale becomes shallow, or loses quality? Personally I liked the movies. They weren’t classics, but they were for the most part enjoyable. Stop being such a purist, BB, see the movies, enjoy them, and give PJ his dues and Tolkien his.
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I'm bad, no really... QUOTES: “We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. What we were trying to do was to analyze what was important to Tolkien and to try to honor that. In a way, we were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves. “ PJ “Obviously we're taking this incredible novel and we're adapting it into films, and I think the film is the important thing. “ Peter Jackson on The Today Show, December 5, 2002 |
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#920 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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We are not things. |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Tolkien's Languages | Forkbeard | Middle Earth | 3 | 10-14-2004 01:08 PM |
Tolkien's message =to die with dignity. Can any one help explain this interpretation | Seblor | Lord of the Rings Books | 6 | 12-18-2002 01:18 PM |