REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Just to make it clear, I am not of the opinion that all religions except for Christianity are totally wrong. Rather, they are merely "incomplete" in the sense that some things are correct and even parallel with Christianity, while other things major (and minor) are wrongly interpreted/or just (imo) wrong, and even more important things are left out or not considered.

I don't think one can accurately view other religions throught the lens of Christianity, and then find them incomplete. Comparisons can be made this way, but I don't think its accurate to evaluate them this way. Other religions are not incomplete, they are a different set of beliefs, neither better nor worse.

[Drgnslyer]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
quote:Originally posted by brownjenkins

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Whether trouble follows or not has nothing to do with the question of whether or not it really is truth.
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but it has everything to do with whether it is a good for society...


Huge numbers of religions have engaged in religious warfare. Christianity is not separate from that, but that does not mean it is not good for society.

One thing that bothers me about that is the fact that you say that religious warfare isn't nescessarily bad for society...

please forgive me if i'm wrong, but the slaughter of thousands of people, not to mention an army made entirely of children during the crusades *the army of children were sent in the belief that god would protect his children, and they would simply march into the holy land and claim it* is good for society?

Again, forgive me if i'm wrong, however I find it hard to believe that any form of war is good for any society.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
One thing that bothers me about that is the fact that you say that religious warfare isn't nescessarily bad for society...

I THINK he's saying that the fact we have had religious wars does not mean that Christianity is not good for society (I don't think he's saying that about the wars)... but I'll let Lief Erikson address that next time he's on. The use of the pronoun 'it' in that sentence does make his meaning a bit ambiguous. (EDIT: the double-negatives he throws in also obscure the meaning a bit... doesn't mean it's not good...etc, sorry LE... but do you want to restate it?)

Also - please don't judge Christianity entirely on the Crusades (why is it that's all I seem to hear about from those who have a problem with Christianity... 'The CRUSADES!!'??)... for one, they were 1000 years ago, for another - they were more about politics in Medievel Europe than about Christianity, for yet another - the Moslems had JUST TAKEN Jerusalem at that time, which provoked the first 'Crusade'... an attempt to re-take what had been a 'Christian-held' city (and THE Holy CITY - in their view) from those who had just taken it.

I'll get back to some other misconceptions of Christianity I see in your posts later. Gotta go.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Mercutio
I understand your point, but just because something is "circular" does that automatically discredit it?

well it sure doesnt help. I can declare X is true because i declare X is true. But it doesnt get us anywhere. Especially if you dont believe X is true yourself. To me it reinforces my belief system. To you it only reinforces that I truly have no evidence of what I say.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Yes. My point was that you ought to give evidence to support this belief. You are claiming knowledge of what God is like (that he is this the way you describe him as). Don't you have any evidence for this?

wait wait... show me where Im saying what god IS. Show me one sentence in that paragraph where Im declaring god is definitively one specific way. How do you get Im making a specific declaration about (a) god from me saying over and over that the divine is imperceptible. "well show me PROOF that you cant perceive god! " Come on now... lets think about that statement shall we. You are trying really hard to back me into a corner in which my point will never fit. Concentrate on my point for once.

Men who knew him intimately taught that he knew sin. The authors of two of the gospels were actually his disciples, men who had known him for a long time.

Huge crowds had experienced his healing the sick, and the people that wrote the gospels were witnesses. We have writings from other apostles and disciples that experienced his miraculous power as well.

His having huge numbers of followers is attested to in sources outside of Christianity, and we actually have evidence concerning his miracles from the mouths of his enemies. We have documents from the religious leaders, saying that he was a practicer of black magic. This tends to support very strongly his being a miracle worker.

more veil. stories and points of view in documents written by men. I could have a close friend who could write things about me today that in 2000 years could easily make me look god like. This has gone on countless times throughout history. The Egyptian pharos had huge tombs covered with hieroglyphs extolling all the base evidence for them being super human. Ramses the great in his life time propagated the story that he single handedly destroyed an army of his enemy despite barely breaking even in the battle. for this reason he quickly achieved demigod like stature which was simply accepted as the truth. lots and lots of veil.

However, in response to the argument that he was incredibly gifted, a wonderful person, and crazy, I gave a psychiatric argument against it. As yet, I have seen no evidence from you on the subject.

a psychiatric argument? must have missed it when you were diagnosing jesus. and... once again... im truly not interested in bickering about the petty little details of the life of jesus. my whole point all along was well beyond that. Im sure we could both list pages of things both for and against the idea that a jesus figure (like a joan of ark or ten thousand other well known figures through history) wasnt normal mentally. And there were other things going on up there. But really whats the point of that. Im not here to declare to all christians that woe be to you for your jesus was a nut. I dont really think thats the important part of the whole jesus story. And I sure hope as a christian it isnt for you either.

The Christian sources are to be believed, not because of the argument that the Bible is the Word of God, but because of numerous other evidences.

so we are to believe that jesus is the son of god and the bible is the literal truth because the bible says so AND because other religious texts say so AND because learned men over history have agreed with that as well. Im afraid that argument can never be won with someone who isnt already submerged deep in that belief system.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Mercutio
4. Prophesy
Basic Bibilical truths:
1. Numbers 23:19
2. Deuteronomy 18:20-22
God cannot lie, and all prophecies must come true.
In the old testament there are over 2000 prohecies, and they ALL come true.
Compare to other major religions and their documents:
Buddha = 0 prophecies
Confucious = 0 prophecies
Koran = 1 prophecy (that Muhammad would return to Mecca, I think, how convient that the writer wrote that he would do something...)
If you want specific prophecies and their fullfillments, I can give you some.

Of course they all come true. That's because in the Bible (Old Testament) the books were written many years after the actual incidents and stories, and therefore the writers knew what would happen and could 'say' that the prophet of God said something he might've not said. So personally, I wouldn't believe most of the prophecies in the Bible.

[GrayMouser]

[[/QUOTE] Originally posted by GrayMouser
I'm taking a walk on a nice winter's day, and I come across an apple tree.

"Boy, I'd sure like a nice ripe apple- but wait, it's the middle of winter and there are no apples on the tree."

So I take up my chainsaw and, in a fit of anger, chop the the offending tree down.

How would you characterise my actions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lief Erikson
B]Irrational. Rather crazy. Illegal. Why?

[/B]
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Mark 11:
"12The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.
13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
14Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it
......
20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered"

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Of course they all come true. That's because in the Bible (Old Testament) the books were written many years after the actual incidents and stories, and therefore the writers knew what would happen and could 'say' that the prophet of God said something he might've not said. So personally, I wouldn't believe most of the prophecies in the Bible.

Unless you've heard of The Dead Sea Scrolls... verifiably dated to some number of years before Christ and containing at least portions of every single Old Testament book, I believe... with no significant wording changes that would alter meanings of prophecies, etc.

[Drgnslyer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
By sheer coincidence, I happened to have a question to ask about Wicca.

Wiccans often wear/use pentacles (or pentagrams, I can never remember which is which ), right? Now, I know the symbolism in Christianity, and in Satanism, but what is the five-pointed star's symbolism in Wicca?

Not Buddhism, but is that good enough for you?

Bringing in an older question....

The five pointed star represents the Spirit, earth, water, wind, and fire, and is in actuality a symbol for prosperity and protection...much like the swastika was origionally a symbol of luck until bastardised and used in conjunction with a negative group. Many witches will still wear the pentagram *pointed up instead of the 'satanic symbol' which is pointed down* as a symbol for protection.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Huge numbers of religions have engaged in religious warfare. Christianity is not separate from that, but that does not mean it is not good for society.

conflict thoughout history has been inspired by many religions... christianity is in no way the only the only force behind it... however, the one thing these conflicts share is one group insisting, not only that their truths are the only truths, but that they should be imposed upon others... this is bad for society

What can one say to that? It's not really an argument- just what you'd almost say.

to put it more plainly... no belief system should be incapable of making compromisies to accommodate other belief systems they must coexist with

On the contrary. You're making an absolutely incorrect assumption that people cannot know God. I have met God. Vast numbers of other Christians have.

i cannot argue how you choose to perceive reality... just as i wouldn't tell a tibetian monk that he had not reached nirvana, or a muslim that allah does not hear his prayers

that said, the fact that the earth revolves around the sun is a fact because it can be demonstrated to anyone... independent of faith... this is not true of supreme beings

Some beliefs are more likely to be wrong than others.

this is the essence of where i disagree with you... i touched upon this in the passion of christ thread... it is one thing to say that your beliefs are your truths, and quite another to say they are the truth... which, by implication, says they should be everyone's truth

it creates a division in humanity where there doesn't have to be one... as long as you are secure in your own beliefs why does it matter one way or the other how well your "factual" evidence compares with another religion's... is it not possible that the monk's belief in nirvana is just as valid as your own belief in jesus christ?

Eh? I see a myriad of beliefs, most of them incorrect. A nonreligious person also must admit the vast majority of them must be at least essentially incorrect, because they disagree so frequently with one another. One might not be able to prove the existence of God, but one can show so much evidence that lack of belief becomes unreasonable, and one can show sufficient evidence to support faith.

or maybe they are all incorrect... there's a lot of evidence for UFOs, bigfoot and astrology too

as shakespeare said "the devil can cite scripture for his purpose"

this is why i tend to lean more towards the eastern faiths, since their moral systems are presented more as advice than decrees... that said, a large portion of christian society these days view the bible in a similar light... more guidelines than steadfast "to the letter" words

there is room in the world for both... but both must be respected as equally valid as far as such things go

"Is it not true that, in, the study of languages, ethics, religions, and codes of manners, ‘He who knows but one knows none?'" ~ Bushido

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
I'm taking a walk on a nice winter's day, and I come across an apple tree.

"Boy, I'd sure like a nice ripe apple- but wait, it's the middle of winter and there are no apples on the tree."

So I take up my chainsaw and, in a fit of anger, chop the the offending tree down.

How would you characterise my actions?

Originally posted by Lief Erikson Irrational. Rather crazy. Illegal. Why?

from the Bible, quoted by GrayMouser
Mark 11:
"12The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.
13Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
14Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it
......
20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered"

I figured that's where you were going with that one, GrayMouser ... do you think it was just a case of a sudden bit of amazing stupidity of the Gospel writer for putting it in (since you seem to think it points to irrationality on the part of Jesus), or do you think there might be something else in that story? IOW, if the Gospel writers thought their case was weak and their goal in writing was ONLY to provide "proof" for their case, don't you think this is a rather odd lapse on their part to include this little story?

[brownjenkins]

maybe he was just having a bad day

[Katie of the Golden Wood]

That is one of my favorite Bible stories (the fig tree). I don't think it demeans Jesus in any way. Remember, according to Christian faith, Jesus was the Son of God, but he was made human, so he wasn't perfect. He also had doubts in the Garden the night before he was crucified. As the goal in the life of a Christian is to emulate the life of Jesus, its nice to see that at times he doubted or could be petulant. It proves that he made mistakes just like we will, but that its okay in the end if we're sorry. I think its one of the most important stories in the Bible.

Katie

[Valandil]

Note: most don't take this story as Jesus being upset about not being able to get a fig. It's viewed as both a demonstration of his power - and more importantly, an illustration to a prophecy He's making at the same time.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
That is one of my favorite Bible stories (the fig tree). I don't think it demeans Jesus in any way. Remember, according to Christian faith, Jesus was the Son of God, but he was made human, so he wasn't perfect. He also had doubts in the Garden the night before he was crucified. As the goal in the life of a Christian is to emulate the life of Jesus, its nice to see that at times he doubted or could be petulant. It proves that he made mistakes just like we will, but that its okay in the end if we're sorry. I think its one of the most important stories in the Bible.

Katie

yes Jesus was and IS the only Son of God but He also IS God and God is perfect according to Christian belief. He showed human qualities because He was both human and divine...however, He never sinned because God can't sin logically.

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
maybe he was just having a bad day

Y'know, Brownie, that's one thing I love about Jesus! He was indeed fully human, as well as fully God. He got angry (but His anger was not sinful, it was righteous, like your anger about injustices); He was funny, He was sad, etc. I love the passage in Hebrews where it says "We do not have a high priest [Jesus] that cannot sympathize with us" (rough memory quote). IOW, He knows and understands us.


That said, I'll add to my questions for GrayMouser - since he has often called me on the carpet for being intellectually lazy, I'll call him on the same thing! GM - what can you tell me about:

• 1. the context of the situation;
  2. where He was coming from and going to;
  3. what happened right after that situation;
  4. what was the season of the year as far as Jewish festivals, etc.,
  5. what are some things about fig tree leafing/fruiting patterns that would have been common knowledge to the people of that time;
  6. what are some other areas in both the OT and the NT where fruit/lack of fruit analogies are used and how are they significant/similar to this story.

If you insist on bringing up this example to (apparently) show the irrationality of Jesus, then I will politely ask you these questions and ask you to withdraw your objection if you can't answer them

Life is complex; a book that purports to deal with life should rationally be expected to be complex, at least in some places; don't you agree?

[Rían]

BTW, Lief, I loved your answer to GM's question! It shows your heart - you love the truth, and are fearless when it comes to thinking and seeking, and you have a heart of integrity, honesty, and courage.

Sorry to make you blush , but I just wanted to point that out. One of the coolest things about Christianity is that we can really love the truth and be fearless in seeking it out, because God Himself is truth. I'm so fortunate as to NEVER have to stoop to deception in these discussions; I want the truth, and I seek the truth, and anything but honesty and truth only hinder a discussion, IMO.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I don't think one can accurately view other religions throught the lens of Christianity, and then find them incomplete. Comparisons can be made this way, but I don't think its accurate to evaluate them this way. Other religions are not incomplete, they are a different set of beliefs, neither better nor worse.

Is there something wrong with viewing other religions through your own? And as a member of one religion, I think it is perfectly acceptable to deem other religions as "wrong", if I am of a religion that believes there is only one true way (to heaven). It makes logical sense.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Of course they all come true. That's because in the Bible (Old Testament) the books were written many years after the actual incidents and stories, and therefore the writers knew what would happen and could 'say' that the prophet of God said something he might've not said. So personally, I wouldn't believe most of the prophecies in the Bible.

Adding to what Valandil said, many of the prophecies in the Old Testament concern events that happened in the New Testament (such as Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection), and were indeed written hundreds of years before the fulfillment took place.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
One thing that bothers me about that is the fact that you say that religious warfare isn't nescessarily bad for society...



Again, forgive me if i'm wrong, however I find it hard to believe that any form of war is good for any society.

I believe it can be good for society. America's war with Iraq, for example, I believe will have a very good impact upon society.

However, Valandil was right. It wasn't religious warfare I was talking about with my wrongheaded pronoun usage- Christianity is what I was speaking of.