Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Are you religious?

ROFLOL! You are kidding, right? *thinks someone has not read through these pages of posts* That's ok... I consider myself an atheist.

[Silme*Christian]

Than how can you consider all religions "hooey" if you have no religion yourself? Don't you think you should give some religions a try before you make a fool of yourself? You don't see me 'dising' all the other religions here. That is because I got to know every religion. I respect what they believe and I know that they love their gods and all. Some people are just searching for answeres.
Don't rock the boat.

[balin]

cassiopeia, you might change your mind if you do come to know Christ. You people may laugh, but if you believe that he died for you, then you come to know him on a personal basis. Yes, he died for YOU, all of you.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Than how can you consider all religions "hooey" if you have no religion yourself? Don't you think you should give some religions a try before you make a fool of yourself? You don't see me 'dising' all the other religions here. That is because I got to know every religion. I respect what they believe and I know that they love their gods and all. Some people are just searching for answeres.
Don't rock the boat.

I don't really get your statement about "don't rock the boat." This whole debate forum is for rocking the boats. Discussing or debating religions, particularly Christianity, is the sole purpose of this thread.


I've just finished reading from page 40, having been too busy to go on Entmoot for two or three days.

Now, I'm going to dig out some of other people's posts and questions that I really wanted to respond to.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Sheena
Oh yes? What was that quote? Something like, "No one comes to the Father except through ME."?

Originally posted by Khamul
Here we disagree. BoP/Sheena is right -- unless a person accepts Jesus, they won't get into heaven. Even if they've never heard about God or Jesus.

And the response from Azalea:

Originally posted by Azalea
Just for everyone's info, the sentence "no man cometh to the Father but by me" is not interpreted "that way" by all denominations. There are those that read it differently, that he is saying "what I'm going to do is the only way everyone is going to be saved," not "Everyone who doesn't believe in me is going to Hell." I'm sure there are passages that can support either view, but I just thought I'd throw that into the mix for everyone's ponderation, that there are Christians out there that interpret that sentence differently than others.

I personally think that that view is very incorrect. The Bible says in more places than one that Jesus is the only way to the Father, in books of the Bible after the Gospels. I'll find places for you later, if you like.

This is the perfect example of a question which has a complex answer. I studied and meditated on the Bible scriptures, and I believe that I have the answer. RÃ*an and Gwaimir can critique my opinion, if they like .

Let's look at the question logically, assuming that the Bible is the Word of God. This is a question completely about the Christian religion that's being asked here, note. So answering it should be based entirely upon the Bible, which is our source of truth.

[Lief Erikson]

Now, it's plain that simply following the religious forms is not the way to heaven. It is the attitude of the spirit, as is evidenced by Jesus' frequent clashes with the Pharisees.

It says in the Bible that the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ.

Now let's note something else that's interesting. People before Jesus died on the cross still arrived at heaven. Obviously, if the Bible's completely correct, they reached heaven through Jesus Christ. Even though they didn't know about him.

The implication is that Jesus died for people before and after his time, but it also implies that you don't have to know and believe in the Christian religion to come to heaven through him.

Now, this is a theory. So let's see if there's any evidence for it in the Scripture.

Instantly the passages popped out. The beatitudes spoke in general terms about people, not only about Christians. 1 John is my primary evidence though for the truth about God's character, and to that I will turn.

I have to go because of a prior commitment. I'll be back as soon as I can to finish my argument. I'd appreciate no one responding to my opinion till I've finished arguing it, I need to get to 1 John first.

[Lief Erikson]

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 John 3:21-24
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


Lief speaking again:
The last sentence of verse 24 says it is by the Spirit that we know he lives in us.

Verse 7 says that anyone who loves is born of God and knows God. That is the primary source for my entire opinion, though it is verified in other places in the Scripture. Such as Jesus' statements in one of the Gospels. I don't know precisely where the passage is, but one of the other Christians could find it if it's necessary.

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. If you obey my commands you will remain in my love. And this is my command: Love one another."

Then the Lord also says that loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength is the greatest commandment, and right on its heels is "love one another."

Meanwhile, we cannot reach heaven except by our faith. This is another established statement in Scripture. Because anyone who has faith knows God and anyone who has love is born of God, I'm forced to believe that the one comes with the other. How this works I'm not completely sure yet; I'll have to meditate on it some more.

Now, there is one more thing that needs to be established. Where the Christian life comes in, and why, if we are born of God through our love, evangelism is so prominent among Christians and conversion to Christianity so desireable for an individual's soul.

[congressmn]

Originally posted by Ruinel
ROFLOL! You are kidding, right? *thinks someone has not read through these pages of posts* That's ok... I consider myself an atheist.

good.

i dont know if i'm an aethist. but being religous is too much work

[Lief Erikson]

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

"When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness."


These are the words of Jesus. Now look closely at that last sentence. The implication is directly that some believe in him who still lie in darkness. He came as "The way and the truth and the life", and the truth will set you free.

More of the words of Jesus:

"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

So what I'm trying to bring across is that while you can reach heaven through love, by following Jesus' spirit and following his moral law, it is SO MUCH EASIER to simply accept the words that he has spoken to the world. He has given us the clue to live by. His words enable us to live according to his law, to know what constitutes a sin and what will throw you into the devil's clutches. Following Jesus is the key, following his way. It is possible to struggle along the narrow path, you are walking on his way. But you are walking along it, then, without the benefit of his words and guidance that will protect you.

That's my opinion. I now open it to be debated by everyone .

I want to get back to everyone else's opinions also. As I was reading the most recent five or six pages to catch up (You guys move too fast! ), I took quotes from several people's posts that I wanted to respond to.

Talk to you all more later today .

~Lief

[Artanis]

Originally posted by congressmn
i dont know if i'm an aethist. but being religous is too much work

What do you mean 'too much work'?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

In regards to the Bible verse, I just read something in an interview with Tom Shadyac, the Catholic director of "Bruce Almighty" which I thought was relevant:

If you followed some standards today, you couldn't even read your Bible. I mean the Bible is chocked-full of some racy stuff, folks. There is a lot of sexual impropriety, there's a lot of violence, and all kind of things. But the point of the Bible is that it's not about a moment, its about the entire journey. Because if the Bible hadn't ended where it ended, it be a pretty downer of a book. But it ends with redemption. So if you take one sentence out of the Bible and that sentence deals with violence or sex, and you just focus on that sentence, you wouldn't want to go near the Bible. But if you look at the Bible as a whole, its redemptive and beautiful and it's God's love story to mankind.

Here is the full interview, if anyone's interested.

Congressman: It's really quite simple. If you don't believe in a God, Goddess, or multiple Gods and/or Goddesses, in other words if you do not believe in any form of Divine Being(s), then you are an atheist.

[HOBBIT]

yeah but do you guys realize that those quotes from the bible are meaningless to non-christians and altheists? it really proves nothing about the existance of god imo (or whatever you are trying to prove)................

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Silme*Christian
Don't rock the boat.

You know, I have this urge to push you right off the boat. Bossy little [edited], ain't ya? Btw: are you too DUMB to realise that she was raised as a Catholic? Sounds to me like she gave it a chance.

[Coney]

Originally posted by balin
cassiopeia, you might change your mind if you do come to know Christ. You people may laugh, but if you believe that he died for you, then you come to know him on a personal basis. Yes, he died for YOU, all of you.

Bigger fool Him ...........if I knew he was gonna die for me, I'd have arranged to borrow money off him first

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
yeah but do you guys realize that those quotes from the bible are meaningless to non-christians and altheists? it really proves nothing about the existance of god imo (or whatever you are trying to prove)................

Yes yes yes, of course, and I assure you, your comments are some of the quoted writings I want to answer. I'm really behind the times on this thread, having been away from it for a couple days, so I have to start really early back.

I was starting by answering a question about the Christian religion. What I posted was not an attempt to prove the Christian religion correct in anyone's eyes, but to explain something about it that I have thought a lot about to people who wondered. Khamul and Sheena were talking about who was allowed into heaven from the Christian standpoint. Theirs was the simplistic taking of the situation, while I thought the answer was more complex than that. I've meditated on the issue in the past and thought about it a lot. So I was answering, based upon the Bible.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I see no reason to believe in the Christian god over all other religions - its not better or worse than any others (plus, being raised a jew, the idea of christ in addition to god and that holy spirit or whatever makes it make even less sense). Religion just does not make any sense. If you think about it, almost nothing will make sense. The bible cannot be taken literally.

I don't understand the reasons for making this assertion, so would you mind going deeper into that assertion? To me it takes more faith to believe everything was chance than to believe God was brilliant.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
From what I've learned in school and from Christian friends, it just does not make any sense at all. It requires blind faith. Why should you believe in it? Because you were raised that way and your parents drilled it into you?

No. That is why I believed it, till the eleventh of November 2001. Because of my parents' opinions; parents do have a HUGE impact on their kids, as I am very aware of, now.

Blind faith is not required. Not at all. That is a very common misconception among nonChristians. Look at the Biblical story of Gideon. God answered his prayer and accepted his need to know that it was God he was in contact with. Gideon put out the fleece and it came away drenched, with the land dry. Then the day after, the fleece was dry, but the ground was drenched.

In the story of Paul, a light from heaven fell down on him. There is no mentioning in the Bible of a need for a blind faith, and there is no blind faith needed. I prayed for six or so months that the Lord would contact me, and I had a hunger in my spirit for him. The Lord finally spoke to me, and I have grown into a personal relationship with him. Never was I commanded to have blind faith.

When my Dad came to know Christ, he was originally an Atheist. He did a test with God. He was smart enough to realize he could be completely wrong that there was no God, and he decided to test. He asked God to send him an angel within 24 hours, and he'd believe.

A man came to fix the piano that day and Dad was forced to hold the piano lid up. The man spoke to Dad about God throughout the entire visit, and afterwards, Dad realized he was meant as the angel he'd prayed for.

Spiritual experiences aren't very uncommon for the Born Again believer. After I was born again, I started writing down my answered prayers in excitement as one by one they all were answered. Months and months ago I stopped writing down those incidents in my journal; they're too common.

The Lord has told me things that are going to happen before they did- prophesies. They have come true.

I have encountered angels and demons myself, and they aren't just feelings. They have directly affected the events in the house.

There are hundreds of books out for Christians about spiritual experiences and miracles, about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Born Again experience. These books wouldn't be popular and wouldn't be bought if all they did is show us how far we are from Christ.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
You have no proof of any of it, and there is none. If all the proof is a "good feeling" or whatever, then that is just silly.

There is actually a lot of evidence. From the New Testament to Solomon, there are large amounts of historical evidence. The kings, governors and rulers that are mentioned are there. There is archaelogical evidence and documents that help to demonstrate that things were as were said to be in the Bible.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Billions of people exist happily without christ. And many millions (if not billions, dont know the number) exist without god or the christian/jewish/islam god. There is no emptiness in me without believing in something silly.

They don't realize what they're missing. You have said you're more inclined to believe in Matrix . . . well it's not that far long, as far as slavery goes. My Mom described her born again experience as a light being turned on in her head, dispelling all the darkness which she hadn't known was there. Others have described it as being struck by a lightning bolt. It is astounding . . . your eyes are opened.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
If there is a God, and he is really all that forgiving, then he will just forgive us and let us all into heaven regardless.

Well, plainly you don't feel as I do, but I don't think God can be all that loving if he doesn't give a wit about justice.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I would think that he would like people who THINK and who QUESTION and not just follow blindly like SHEEP. If not, then why the heck would I want to spend enternity with such a messed up being? I'd rather spend it with some fun aliens :P

Hey, I think .

Originally posted by HOBBIT
And really, like how many REALLY devout christians are there that go to church every sunday, are extremely charitable, and have commited NO SINS as described in the bible (or at least not confessed them all - not really sure - if you confess something, is that wiped off your slate?). What, will there be 100 people let into heaven? Hey, maybe there are more than I think. And what, are all non-christians screwed? Some good forgiving god, huh? People haven't said it recently, but several christians have said to everyone that all non-christians will be going to hell. How sweet.

This last I answered in that post you had trouble with earlier. The one where I was going from the Bible and describing my opinion of who goes into heaven.

[Lief Erikson]

So now I have left three doors open for people to believe again. Many Atheists and Agnostics I've met on this board have gotten annoyed with me for talking about spiritual experiences, but it's necessary when talking about knowing Christ. People say: "How do you know Christ is alive?"

Our religion says he was resurrected and alive. Isn't it fair to say that you know him, if you do?

So the three doors I leave open are:
Think me insane (at least partially).
Think me very deluded.
Or think me a huge liar.


But note, I'm not VERY likely to be a liar, because I have also given a possible way for other people to experience what I have. What I'm talking about isn't based to make people think better of me. If that was my goal, I'm awfully stupid doing it on this board. No, my goal is for other people to check out what I have experienced and seek God themselves.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I wouldn't die for Christ. I'm sure he was a good person, but I don't know him. I may die for my parents or sisters or friends, but not somebody I don't know.

Completely logical.

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I am trying my best to understand this, though it's difficult because I haven't been brought up in a religious family. Perhaps others (I'm not picking on anybody here, BTW) should make an effort to understand evolution (and yes I know many creationists do understand it). Then we can choose for ourselves which sounds more logical and most likely.

Evolution and the Bible aren't strongly against each other, in my opinion. I have yet to see the passage that says it is.

Also I don't tend to take the 7 days literally, but that's for Biblical reasons.
1) The sun was created on the fourth day. What were the other days judged by?
2) Jesus says in the New Testament that he is coming back "soon". If this is what he calls soon, then I'm interested to see what he calls a day.
3) There's a passage in Psalms that talks about a thousand years for men being a moment of yesterday for the Lord. Time is plainly different in heaven anyway; there we're talking about eternity.

Because of the time of the creation of the sun, it seems unlikely that human time was the standard. Because of the length of heavenly time's not being known to us, I have no opinion on the age of the Earth, and am thus willing to accept science's statements.

The flood, meanwhile, is another matter. As is the break-up of the continents, which is actually recorded in Genesis. Just as the dinosaur is recorded in Genesis. The things God says to the serpent when he is punishing it make me think very strongly that the serpent was representative of the reptile species, and that the serpent was the dinosaur.

Modern scientific evidence promotes a faster evolutionary view, currently called Micro evolution. Experiments have been done with the Drisophila fly and the Burmingham moth that support that. Other creatures like the Sahara crocodile tend to support that view as well. We now know that the environment changes far more quickly than was previously thought, and as a consequence, Micro evolution is more logical anyway.

The flood and the break-up of the continents I can't get into though, without going into my Dad's theories, and I'm not yet brilliant enough in science to capture them properly for anyone.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
So now I have left three doors open for people to believe again. Many Atheists and Agnostics I've met on this board have gotten annoyed with me for talking about spiritual experiences, but it's necessary when talking about knowing Christ. People say: "How do you know Christ is alive?"

'As being struck by a lightning bolt', 'spiritual experiences' - that's the kind of experience that would make even me consider the truth in Christianity. I won't be convinced by reasoning. A thing that you may view as an answer from God, like the man that was fixing the piano for your father, I would probably think of as a coincidence. I'm a sceptic, I need 'proof' to believe.