06-29-2008, 06:14 PM | #881 |
Elven Warrior
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as in? are you asking if I believe Jesus was born with original sin as in Adam and eve?
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- Last edited by Azrael : 06-29-2008 at 06:17 PM. Reason: misspelling |
06-29-2008, 06:21 PM | #882 | |
Elf Lord
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The first is Original Sin - Universal Salvation = sinners + Jesus The second is no Original Sin and no Universal salvation = people who can choose not to sin. Jesus wasn't affected by Original Sin (as I understand it) so could choose to commit sin or not, but He didn't start as a sinner.. My question is, "Does everyone have that choice, and if so, has anyone taken it, yet?"
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-29-2008, 06:37 PM | #883 | ||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-29-2008, 06:56 PM | #884 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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A good example of how this works is a person who has a genetic anger problem. He inherits it, but he also cooperates with it of his own Free Will. That's the case with all sinners. Sin is inherited, but we also cooperate with it and freely choose it. We're responsible for all sinful actions we commit because we choose each and every one of them. Even though we have Original Sin whether we want it or not. Original Sin creates a propensity to evil, but we make that evil a reality through our own free choice, thus showing that we truly are Adam's children in spirit as well as in flesh.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-29-2008, 07:23 PM | #885 | ||
Elf Lord
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The most basic positive reason all Christians should be in only one denomination (the one that preserves the doctrines that go back to the beginning of Christian history), is that that way all Christians would have available to them all that Christ wanted them to have on Earth. The Catholic Church, you see, has teachings that only gain depth as time goes on- they don't change. The Church's teachings go back to the dawn of Christianity. They are visible not only in the Bible but in the teachings of the Early Church, and they carefully base themselves on Scripture and a Tradition that goes back to the dawn of Christian history. When the Spirit inspires the council and they come to a conclusion, the Church falls in line rather than fragmenting into an ocean of dissenting opinions that make the will of Christ hard for people to make out. Submission is part of what Christianity is all about, submission not only to Christ in heaven but also to the Body of Christ on Earth, which is Christ in the world. In the Catholic Church is unity of doctrine and belief, unity of one true message that goes back to the beginning of the Church, back to Christ himself. The apostles taught their successors that message and they passed it on- the writings of the Early Church are full of Catholicism. This protects unity to the truth. If everyone comes up with their own contradictory opinions rather than submitting to one council to which Christ reveals the truth, lots of people will stray from the truth on various points, and time only increases the fragmentation process. That's what has happened in Protestantism, and it is extremely sad. We need to all be united to one truth, not fractured into countless factions over what the truth is. This is the way the Early Church had of achieving this, and that method has not changed all the way up to today. You can see the Early Christians doing this with the councils in the Book of Acts. They had a council recorded there, I think in chapter 5 (though I could be wrong about that), where the leaders of the Church assembled and decided, with Peter's leadership, that they would accept the Gentiles. Immediately that became the Church's policy and everyone fell into line with it rather than fracturing, because they submitted to the Church. Some Jews said that Gentiles entering still had to be circumcised, and Paul roundly condemned this view. That was the normal Church procedure- state the truth in a council and expect everyone to fall into line, and if they don't, excommunicate dissenters as heretics rather than allow their divisions and falsehoods to proliferate in the Church.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-29-2008 at 07:31 PM. |
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06-29-2008, 07:38 PM | #886 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Location: Copenhagen
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It lies with those that make the claim! The burden of proof, empirical evidence. Not sightings in a dark night, nor 'miracles' when no third person is around to witness it, no contradictory, incomplete texts written by obscure authors. Evidence! Evidence! EVIDENCE. Where is your evidence? Where is it? Give it to me! Now. Show me that God of yours. ONE TINY SHRED OF EVIDENCE. Anything! I'm waiting... That's how simple it is. That's why there are athetists in this world. That's why atheists, like me, reject the notion of a God not because it is impossible that there is a God but because there is not a shred of proof that could stand the scrunity of science. There is absolutely zero evidence. Nada. Atheists reject the notion of a God because the claim that there is a God is not supported by evidence! You've turned logic on its head. 1. Believers of Christianity claim there is a God. 2. Atheists reject this claim until evidence is given to support the claim. It's that simple. I can't accept something as profound as the existence of a God without any substantial, verifiable proof! Nor should anyone else. But we are all the product of our culture(s). It is very, very understandable to me that people believe in a God. On the other hand I can not believe in something because tradition, family, friends, society in general, believe it. I need to be shown proof. And when modern science comes along and shows the progress of evolution, the origins of our Earth, of our solar system, of how the human brain works: Then I have something verifiable. That is something I can read about and analyze. Evidence in all directions. And reasonable, logical analysis of this evidence. That is something to believe! But a God.. the Bible.. a multitude of inconsistencies and impossibilities.. it is not reasonable to believe it. Being an atheist is as rational as can be. It is simply asking for the same reasonable, satisfying, logical evidence that can expected in all walks of life. It isn't a rejection of messages of hope, or messages of goodwill, nor is it a rejection of morality. That is why I say that morals and ethics are man-made. Until you can show me that something else than men and women are responsible for the development of these things, I have no choice but to believe that they are that... man-made. I can't rely on an age-old book that I do not know the authors of. I can't rely on a book that has been amended countless times, and is still being amended, and still hear that it is the words of God, and then believe it word by word, put blind faith into it. I can't do that. That would defy reason. That would defy everything my instincts tell me. That would be wrong! Do you understand why this defies reason? Why I can not believe every word of the Bible just because the Bible itself says that I should. Is that not a reasonable approach? Is it not reasonable to reject a book when its teachings have been time and time again contradicted by our advances in knowledge of science and of the world? Is that irrational? Is it irrational to ask for evidence? For evidence. Not ifs. Not buts. Evidence. No ifs. No buts. Evidence. Evidence. Evidence. Show me evidence of a God and I will definitely be the first in line with an open mind. But until then... the Earth spins around on its own axis, and gravity pulls us down, down, down and the atmosphere would disappear if this gravity seized to 'work' on us and the clouds and the warmth and life would disappear. And no human beings, no God, no Almighty. Just like it was before we developed into homo sapiens, just like when our species die. Long before the sun swallows us whole the intense radiation would kill all life on our beloved planet Earth, and even if we were to find a way to move further out in our solar system, the Sun would still catch up with us, until finally the solar system collapses on itself and this system of one sun and Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are all wiped out. It is nature at is most brilliant, at its most beautiful, yet at its cruelest and saddest. This is our faith I believe. And I say believe because I can not know it. There is no book to tell me that this is the absolute truth. But it is the only evidence around. Our understanding of suns and planets and solar systems tell us this. That our Sun will expand and by time it will engulf us all. We 'see' this with our telescopes and instruments. These are measurable things. These are things that everyone can relate to. Evidences, however strong and however weak, however comprehensive and however incomplete; evidence nonetheless. Evidence.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." Last edited by Coffeehouse : 06-29-2008 at 07:43 PM. |
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06-29-2008, 07:52 PM | #887 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Coffeehouse. Wanna be a camp counselor?
I think you'd like this one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Quest
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-29-2008, 07:53 PM | #888 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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The problem, Coffeehouse, is that atheists make a claim of their own that they need to present evidence to support. I agree that Christians should provide good reason to believe that God exists in the way they say he does. And there are good reasons- I can point you to a lot of posts here where I or other people here have already talked about some of the evidence.
But that's all beside the point. Christians need to back their claims, and Atheists need to back THEIR claims. Atheists claim that there is no God. They believe there is no God. They need a reason for their belief that there is no God, or else their belief is entirely blind, irrational faith. Where is the evidence supporting Atheism? If I'm going to believe there is a God, I should have reasons or evidence to back that belief. If you're going to believe there is no God, you need reasons or evidence to back that. But there are none. So you should not be an atheist. Since you don't know of any evidence pointing either way, you should be agnostic. Quote:
I can give you more than that, but that'll make a good starting point.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-29-2008 at 08:02 PM. |
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06-29-2008, 08:06 PM | #889 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I don't quite see how from sinners, one gets no choice. Or do you mean no choice about being sinners? If that's what you mean, then yes, certainly people have no choice about being sinners. Doesn't mean they don't have free will.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-29-2008, 08:20 PM | #890 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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No choice about being sinners. Yes, that was my point. Thanks, Gwai.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-29-2008, 08:30 PM | #891 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Posts: 2,145
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It's so sad to see reason be so thoroughly corrupted.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
06-29-2008, 08:31 PM | #892 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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*poke* read my link.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-29-2008, 08:42 PM | #893 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
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Hehe I have now. Amusing Sis
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
06-29-2008, 09:04 PM | #894 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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I responded to 886 thoroughly. If you're not going to respond to my refutation except by saying, "no," there's nothing more we can say to each other on the topic.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-29-2008, 09:10 PM | #895 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
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I meant to say precisely what I said. Neither more or less.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
06-29-2008, 09:56 PM | #896 |
Kraken King
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
06-29-2008, 10:18 PM | #897 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: in the one town with that weird name that i can;t seem to think of...*luaghes* but its a funny name!
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thats a deep question...my answer from what i know of God's word so far. no, we all have sin in us to begin with and we all need Jesus's gift, but when leaf said we have a choice I think he meant when you become to develop super ego which happens around 7 or 8. at that point you understand right or wrong and you know if your action is a sin or not. Thats what I think when he said we have a choice. Correct me if im wrong or add if im missing....plz make it short i don't like reading your long responses leaf...their too far over my head lol and half way through i get lost lol
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
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06-29-2008, 10:21 PM | #898 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: in the one town with that weird name that i can;t seem to think of...*luaghes* but its a funny name!
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hey im bored out of my mind anyone want to play a game? ether if you have a yahoo account a game on there like poker so alot can play oooor if you have halo for PC hehehhe i want to shoot you......or steal your flag lol
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
06-29-2008, 10:22 PM | #899 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: in the one town with that weird name that i can;t seem to think of...*luaghes* but its a funny name!
Posts: 238
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opps wrong forum...going to teacup...thought i was posting there
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One Love, One God, One Way! -Me- Do you trust me? I can show you the world -Aladdin- If home is where the heart is, then my home is where you are! -Relient K, I'm taking you with me- |
06-29-2008, 11:53 PM | #900 | |||
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
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The basis for my beliefs on morality is quite simple, really. If it hurts people, it's bad. Murder and rape are obvious examples of this, but other 'immoralities' would certainly fit as well. I don't think that a moral compass needs to be based on either religion or human intellect - I don't base mine on either one. It comes down to, for the most part - if it causes pain to others, don't do it. And I don't just mean physical pain - I mean emotional pain, psychic pain, mental pain, whatever. Causing gratuitious pain to another is wrong, and 'immoral.' It has nothing to do with me going to Hell if I act a certain way - it actually has nothing to do with me at all. It has to do with the world being a much better place if we do all we can not to hurt each other. Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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