01-29-2006, 01:26 AM | #881 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-29-2006, 03:11 AM | #882 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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God's role as "author" may be like his role as "creator". The fact that we exist because we are created does not mean that God exists because he was created. The fact that we are predestined does not necessarily mean that God is predestined. Perhaps he is predestined, perhaps not. Perhaps he predestines himself eternally through infinity? I don't know. My point is that the rules that apply to men don't always apply to God. In Romans 11:33, it is written, "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!" His paths are indeed beyond tracing out. I am not in a position to guess whether he predestines himself, is not predestined at all, or other. God does not chart his course for us in the scripture. He describes our course, in a limited though highly practical way. The scripture talks about us, and it says we are predestined. Trying to draw a link between us and God in this matter is hopeless. I know of no scripture that talks about the predestination or free will of God, and based upon 11:33, I'll just have to assert that we don't know. If you have a better answer based on some other scriptures, I'd be interested to hear.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-29-2006 at 03:23 AM. |
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01-29-2006, 03:16 AM | #883 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Bump.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
01-29-2006, 01:42 PM | #884 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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God is merciful, but anyone who doesn't believe in him will die; God is righteous, but murders without a reason visible (or, from you, because of blood connections over a 2000 years period). And God is good. Very convincing.. And I'm wondering, why would God care whether I believe in him or not? Say someone on the one hand donated a lot to the community and poor, and on the other persuades others that God doesn't exist; even curses God. Why would God care as long as he's a good person? Quote:
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If it's to clean the world from evil and cruelty, it could've been done before, at the creation. And I wonder why it wasn't? Then there would be no need for God to suffer as Jesus either. Or all the mass murders you promised in the future. |
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01-29-2006, 02:50 PM | #885 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Here's the catch. Everyone has sinned. By rights, on the Day of Judgment, everyone would go to hell. So if we're judged by works, yet we all sin, how can we live? The answer lies in the way that Jesus saves people. When people confess Christ and believe in him, he actually enters them and begins cleaning out their lives from the inside. He purges them completely clean so that all they do is good, and they do no evil. A completely pure, innocent creation is the final product. The transformation begins here on Earth (and I promise you, if you look at some of the testimonies of hard-core, drug-addicted criminals who are examples of shining, utterly transformed lives, I think you'd be forced to agree) and ends in heaven. When it ends, those who believe in God are purified. They are utterly changed so that they can stand innocent on the Day of Judgment. Their faith in Christ was what enabled him to enter them and work this change, so belief in Christ is necessary and central to good life. One cannot do what is right without this. Quote:
Also, God must punish evil if those who commit it reject his mercy. He also punishes Israel's sin before the Gentiles, for Israel is his made up of his chosen people. I have not argued that Israel is being judged for the death of Christ. That is something I'm uncertain about at present, so I'm not making that claim. Quote:
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Rather, we can come to know Christ and see for ourselves that he is good, honest and loving. Coming to know him, one develops trust in him as he proves himself trustworthy. Just as when you get to know a friend better and better over time, you develop faith in them, so it is with God. Seeing the strong goodness in God as he interacts with men is strong evidence that he is worthy of trust on such matters as pain.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-29-2006, 06:44 PM | #886 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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There's curses in the Bible? How... occult.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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01-29-2006, 08:52 PM | #887 | ||
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
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Jews don't actively try to convert others (like many Christian sects do). Converts are few. So to be Jewish is a cultural thing as well. You actually don't have to believe in all of Judaism to be Jewish, for to be Jewish also means that you are decended from the ancient Israelites. I will quote Wikipedia's entry. This is their Historical Background for the word "Jew" I shall bold some the things that relate to your question (although you should read it all ). The last sentence sums it up. Quote:
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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01-29-2006, 09:43 PM | #888 | |
Elf Lord
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Here is one critical difference between people who operate in the occult and people who follow God. God's followers are conduits for God's power that accomplishes God's will. Users of magic use power to work their will, and the power they wield is not from God. I don't believe that the curse the Israelites leveled at themselves when crucifying Jesus was a curse from God, but was more along the lines of magic witchcraft from Satan.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-29-2006, 11:12 PM | #889 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Location: Indiana, USA
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01-30-2006, 02:35 AM | #890 | ||||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Practitioners of Witchcraft are merely conduits for power of the world around them. This power ultimately comes from the One, who is commonly seen in manifestations as the God or the Godess. Quote:
Do you mean that Satan cursed the Isrealites? If it wasn't God, who cursed the Isrealites?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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01-30-2006, 06:31 AM | #891 | ||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 01-30-2006 at 11:01 AM. |
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01-30-2006, 08:44 AM | #892 | ||||
Elf Lord
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In my opinion, it's much easier and logical to believe in a neutral God... |
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01-30-2006, 02:22 PM | #893 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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i imagine if you asked someone in the 1800s if they had any fear of nuclear radiation, they would probably have said no imagine if your nine-year-old had never seen an electric stove before, or any appliance that created heat, and had never seen anyone burned... you decided to test her respect for your authority by turning on one of the burners, saying to her "don't touch that, it will hurt you", then leaving... what would you think if, while you were gone, curiosity overcame the girl and she touched the red hot? is that really a fair situation to judge her over?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-30-2006, 02:35 PM | #894 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Location: Reality
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does what you actually do during your lifetime have any weight at all? what you, and other christians seem to be saying is that accepting god is all you need to do... as long as this acceptance is sincere, you can be as selfish in life as you want i just don't get it
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-30-2006, 04:22 PM | #895 | |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
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"Acceptin' Jesus inta yer heart" is of course something christians do, but a lot protestants have gotten to the point where they think that's all there is to it. As Lief said, you either reject or accept it, and if you accept it you have to change your thinking: you can no longer believe in other religion's gods, because the christian doctrine teaches that God is the only god etc... Bieng christian doesn't mean bieng infallible to sin, and the "once you're saved, you're saved" idea of protestants is thoroughly wrong. (which by the way is confusing since they all go up to the front of the church and get "saved" every sunday...hmm..). But I'm not going to attack them, instead I'll explain. Once a christian is baptized he has gone through the process of "bieng saved". He is now a christian and will not go to the flames if he lives his/her life believeing, communicating (praying), with God. But since he is not infallible, bieng a pretty much sinful and UNREPENTING of it kind of person, he is not guaranteed salvation from the flames, even though he was baptized and a christian. When he DOES sin, and wants to repent, repenting is done several ways, hopefull in more ways than one at a time. Confession, which I think we're all familiar with from films, and of course a "change of heart" must take place. Now, this is the way Catholics, Anglicans (still hopefully), and Orthodox christians beleive. Some Protestans believe said above, I.e. Billy Graham is a very educated protestant and is familiar with the above theology. However a lot of protestants believe that: Once you are a christian, you're saved for sure but you do need to repent, but still... They don't believe in One Baptism for the Remission of Sins, they believe that "its all in your heart", and that bieng forgiven for your sins must take place in your heart and mind (which is not disagreeable, but it simply doesn't seem enough to me). They believe you should be baptized only if you want/need to.
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01-30-2006, 04:40 PM | #896 | |||
Elf Lord
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If you are not in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, don't hear from him or know him, then you're forming a judgment based on too small a data sample. If there is no other data to go on, then perhaps that's what you have to do. But if it's possible to know God and experience his love, yet you refuse to do that, then you're ignoring a large chunk of the available evidence about his nature. I'll finish my response in a few hours. Class in four minutes- can't do it now!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-30-2006 at 07:38 PM. |
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01-30-2006, 04:51 PM | #897 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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as i said, one could live the life of a mother teresa, but if they happened to be hindu, or buddhist, or muslim, or even agnostic in terms of their beliefs, they would not be saved thus, living a "good life" alone is not enough... the focus is on how you act and what you believe, not just on how you act
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-30-2006, 05:29 PM | #898 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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In the same way, God's goal was love for Adam and Eve.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-30-2006, 05:55 PM | #899 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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i know i do with my kids... i don't just say, "that is wrong" ... or even, "i am just saying this 'cause i love you, even if you don't understand" ... i explain to them the practical "why" behind it so they can see the reasoning for themselves... so that they can come to the understanding themselves... it is a much more powerful motivator (IMO ) the practical "whys" seem to be lacking in much of the biblical text
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-30-2006, 07:05 PM | #900 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
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Any time I'm ever feeling really bummed out or tired & irritated, and I see brownjenkins has entered a post in one of these "God/ no god/ whatever" threads, and I read his posts, it cheers me up beyond belief. Brownjenkins, you're my moot-hero! Always cheers me up.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
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