Iraq

[jerseydevil]

By the way - what I propose you guys should be wholeheartly supporting.

I propose the things which the US was founded on.

No allies, build up a defense system that supports the US only. We should recall all our troops from over seas and build up defenses in the US. That way - you don't have to worry about US foreign policy.

But when the world falls apart becuase of French and German inaction - the sign to the Statue of Liberty will be down. We can't protect everyone inside our borders. People will have to do with the new world order on their own without the US help.

[Aralyn]

I would just like to say this, My father is in the air force so this hits close to home. Everyday we wonder whether he will get called up or not. In spite of this my opinion is that this war will happen and needs to. Whether in ten years or now. Iraq needs it's weapons to make it feel big. They are also jealous. In case you haven't noticed thier economy is not the greatest. Thier weapons are a life craft to them. Ignoring the problem and deciding not to go to war will not make the problem go away. I would wholeheartedly loved to be proved wrong that war will happen but I believe it will probably come to something big.

P.S. Dont get me wrong I don't WANT this to happen.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Aralyn
I would just like to say this, My father is in the air force so this hits close to home. Everyday we wonder whether he will get called up or not. In spite of this my opinion is that this war will happen and needs to. Whether in ten years or now. ....
Ignoring the problem and deciding not to go to war will not make the problem go away.

I agree with you. All it does is give Hussein more time to perfect his weapons.

My brother is in the Navy - he was stationed in Bahrain - but now he's stationed in Japan(most likely dealing with North Korea).

I am concerned about my brother - so people who say that if you know people who would fight that the feelings would be different - isn't true. I support a war now - before Iraq becomes even a larger problem.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
My brother is in the Navy - he was stationed in Bahrain - but now he's stationed in Japan(most likely dealing with North Korea).

Speaking of Bahrain, they took 5 guys into custody over there today because they were targetting a terrorist attack on the US Navy's 5th fleet stationed there...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Speaking of Bahrain, they took 5 guys into custody over there today because they were targetting a terrorist attack on the US Navy's 5th fleet stationed there...

I had heard that.

By the way - now that North Korea has nuclear weapons - this is how they are reacting to anything to disarm them...

U.S., Russia push peaceful Korea solution

Russia, which has ties with North Korea and is trying to mediate the standoff, has criticized the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency's decision to refer the standoff over North Korea's nuclear program to the U.N. Security Council.

The International Atomic Energy Agency's (IAEA) move could open the way for punishing sanctions, which the North has said it would consider an act of war.

The North Korean government has accused the IAEA of being a pawn of the United States and meddling with its national affairs by referring the nuclear dispute to the U.N. Security Council.

Pyongyang has no obligation to the nuclear watchdog since pulling out of the non-proliferation treaty last month, according to a statement in the country's official Korean Central News Agency.

Pyongyang said it is an "interference" in its affairs for the IAEA to even discuss North Korea's "nuclear issue," calling it illegal now that it has left the NPT.

The 35-nation executive board of the IAEA Wednesday voted 31-0 to cite Pyongyang for defying U.N. nuclear safeguards, and sent the issue to the Security Council.

IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei has said the agency will seek a "diplomatic solution" to North Korea's breach of international nuclear agreements.

"I think the message from the board ... was very clear," IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei said Wednesday. "I think everyone made it clear that the DPRK has to come into full compliance.

If things continue to go on the way they are with Iraq - we might as well replace the name "North Korea" with the name "Iraq".

[Legolaslvr!]

What r we talking about here?

[Elvellon]

Dunedain wrote:
I guess you missed the fact that he dropped Anthrax from a plane onto his own people amongst other thigns he has used on them..

No I didn’t, but I guess you forgot when he did it.

I sincerely hope you don't believe that! It might be the case in Portugal, however since American tourism has declined since 9/11/01 you can see the slow decline in the European Economy. It's funny how when the American economy is suffering and goes down, so too does the European economy. Coincidence? I think not....

Do you actually think the European recession was caused by lack of American tourists?

It has nothing to do with American tourism. All economies are connected nowadays, if a major economy, like the American, enters recession so do others, but claiming that American tourism is an important factor to the European Economy…

The above are only 2 instances of the turn around of American sentiment currently. In case you don't know, Pennsylvania & Florida are states in the US...

Are we to take you seriously at all?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
It has nothing to do with American tourism. All economies are connected nowadays, if a major economy, like the American, enters recession so do others, but claiming that American tourism is an important factor to the European Economy…

The American economy isn't as bad as the European economy. No matteer how much the media says how bad the economy of the US is - our unemployment rate is only a little above 6% - whereas Germany's is 10.5 and the rest of Europe is only slightly less than that.

The only reason everyone thinks the American economy is so bad is because we had 4% unemployment rate 2 years ago. The US economy right now is just in a wait and see mood.

The US public boycotting European products and cancelling trips will NOT help your economy.

NATO just agreed to protect Turkey.

[Laurelyn]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
No offense man, but if you don't like all that America can and does provide for you, then get the *expletive* out....

Counting the years til I can follow your advice, buddy. Sucks to be a minor, if people want rid of me.

[Elvellon]

JD wrote:
Kuwait as the only country who resisted Iraq???? That is hiliarious

Yes it is, especially because what I was telling was that they were the only ones that didn’t manage to resist Iraq.

He's NOT supposed to have them? What you are proposing is let him have them, let him continue developing them, he hasn't used them yet - so why should we worry. Who cares if it's a terroristic regime - who is currently on the same road as North Korea.

Do we care about North Korea, Iran, Byelorussia, Saudi Arabia, China, etc?

Well, if we do (notice that I’m not speaking only of the US) we do have a strange way of showing it.

You cannot use the justification that you attack them because he is a vicious dictator and at the same time ignore all the others that do precisely the same thing (including hoarding mass destruction weapons). It becomes a void, suspicious looking explanation.

Not even the French or Germans dispute the fact that he has chemical and biological weapons. Why is nuclear so bad? Let's see.... Move to the Asia penesula and look what is going on with North Korea. When yoyu have Iraqs nuclear missiles aimed right at you - which if he continues on the path he is - it will happen, I hope you call France and Germany to abil you guys out of this situation.

You think the danger is in the missiles? That is the least of the dangers. It is so much easy to smuggle a weapon (specially a biological one) into another country and then use it.

But you keep saying it is certain he would use them. Well, the questions are what and when. What can he can gain and when can he profit from doing it?
Yet, to use that weapons is to became exposed to certain retribution, and therefore to loose all he have. Those weapons are only valuable if they are not used.

he will invade his neighbors

Nope, he will wait for the opportunity to invade. If he remains convinced that that would bring retribution he would not dare to do it.

If we DON'T take action it will show the rogue states that the UN won't do anything or stand up to anything UNTIL they have the weapons.

You seem to want to deal with them when they are bigger threat than they are now. You want to deal with them as North Korea. I won't to save lives and deal with Hussein NOW before he has all his weapons ready to hold the Middle East Hostage.

It is not only what one’s do, but how one does it.

Personally I believe that, under the current situation, containment, being viable, is the best solution by far.

And if one decides the attack is absolutely necessary, it must be done with a clear mandate of the UN (not the current case) and with hard evidence backing it, not mere conjectures or proofs that can easily be contested. Otherwise you are merely increasing local (and global) instability.

[Elvellon]

Do you understand ecomonics and how the tourism industry affects almost every part of a society. How it is a ripple affect? You may think it only affects hotels and restaurants and tourist attractions - but it affects TAX dollars which are placed on those business, it affects transport (taxis, rail,etc) it affects the lively hood of people all the way down to the maids. but your probably right - Americans may not make up a big part of tourism in Europe. But if it does and more schools and individuls start cancling trips - you will feel an affect.

I believe I have an obligation to understand something of Economics, yes. You forget only a small thing here, since American tourism is but a small part of the European tourism industry even considering the multiple ways tourism affects economy, well, don’t hold your breath expecting it to cause any major crisis (or even a significant one). So obviously you will have to find a better reason than that.

The American economy isn't as bad as the European economy. No matteer how much the media says how bad the economy of the US is - our unemployment rate is only a little above 6% - whereas Germany's is 10.5 and the rest of Europe is only slightly less than that.

The only reason everyone thinks the American economy is so bad is because we had 4% unemployment rate 2 years ago. The US economy right now is just in a wait and see mood.

The US public boycotting European products and cancelling trips will NOT help your economy.


By the way - America's consumerism which Europe complains about a lot - is what keeps your countries going. All you have to do is just look at the trade deficit that the US has with Europe. It is constantly talked about in the papers here how the cargo containers are piling up in Port Elizabeth, because we currently import more than we export.

Yes, and that from non-competitive Europe. Who would say, uh?

But seriously, you certainly know that consumerism itself is the target of much criticism here, American one its merely an extension, and frankly most people care about the local one, not yours.

As for you boycotting European products, sure, that would hurt…both of us, or do you expect that that wouldn’t have consequences for both sides?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Yes it is, especially because what I was telling was that they were the only ones that didn’t manage to resist Iraq.

Do we care about North Korea, Iran, Byelorussia, Saudi Arabia, China, etc?

Well, if we do (notice that I’m not speaking only of the US) we do have a strange way of showing it.

You cannot use the justification that you attack them because he is a vicious dictator and at the same time ignore all the others that do precisely the same thing (including hoarding mass destruction weapons). It becomes a void, suspicious looking explanation.

We looked at diplomacy before. Obviously that hasn't worked. Look at North Korea as example. And by the way - we have been working toward a resolution in regards to North Korea.

You think the danger is in the missiles? That is the least of the dangers. It is so much easy to smuggle a weapon (specially a biological one) into another country and then use it.

I agree - but I'm not willing to wait for him to use them or to give them to some terrorist organisation. When the time comes and he does supply them with bio and chemical weapons - how many people do you think will believe us that he supplied them. People still claim that there is no proof that Osama Bin Ladin implemented the 9/11 attacks.

But you keep saying it is certain he would use them. Well, the questions are what and when. What can he can gain and when can he profit from doing it?

He can easily sell them or he can do exactly what North Korea is doing right now. You want a situation like North Korea in the Middle East?

Yet, to use that weapons is to became exposed to certain retribution, and therefore to loose all he have. Those weapons are only valuable if they are not used.

Nope, he will wait for the opportunity to invade. If he remains convinced that that would bring retribution he would not dare to do it.

It is not only what one’s do, but how one does it.

Personally I believe that, under the current situation, containment, being viable, is the best solution by far.

Again - North Korea is a perfect example. North Korea was contained. North Korea had nuclear inspectors. North Korea has now torn up their treaties and have said "give us money or we will blow you away. If you sanction us - we will consider that as a decaration of war."

And if one decides the attack is absolutely necessary, it must be done with a clear mandate of the UN (not the current case) and with hard evidence backing it, not mere conjectures or proofs that can easily be contested. Otherwise you are merely increasing local (and global) instability.

1441 wasn't about proving that Hussien had the weapons. Hussein was supposed to declare everything he had. Even Hans Blix has said that tons of VX nerve gas has NOT been accounted for by Iraq. That they have missiles which gone beyond their limits. That they have continued to comply with 17 resolutions to date. Now we are working on an 18th resolution - another resolution that Hussein can take and use as a door mat.

By the way - the typ eof man Hussein is has been very much demonstrated today. He has declared that will blow up his oil wells, blow up his dams, starve his own people. You really think a person like this will have any qualms about using biological and chemical weapons to get what he wants in the Middle East?

[Elvellon]

So tell me - what makes France and Germany right? Because they're against war? They were against war during WWII, they were protesting us putting nuclear weaponry in Germany in the 1980's saying that it was going to cause nuclear holocaust - instead it lead to the break up of the Soviet Union.

So I tell you; the point here is not if they are right or wrong, the point is they (the people) do it because they have reasons to believe in the peace solution. Claiming they oppose you here because “they are anti-Americans” is simply refusing to face their reasons and to refuse democratic debate.

actually have seen it first hand. I've shown Europeans around and I've been to England. I've come into contacts with European tourists.

So you actually think that gives you more than the merest glimpse about Europeans? First hand would be to live here, for a long time. I’m sure you would agree the same is true about America.

So then why is one of the main complaint from you guys that we're patriotic. As I said in other threads - nothing prevents you guys from being patriotic.

Patriotism is a double edge sword. While it have its positive points, it blinds those who live it too intensely towards facts, and allows people to be led by obscure characters for their own dark schemes. You like to talk about WWII; that should give you a good hint why we distrust it.

but I'm tired of hearing the "lazy fat, uncultured Americans"

Yes, I’m tired of it too, even if it is usually just Americans complaining to have been called it, somewhere. And yet some Americans do not seem to refrain to use even worse epithets about others, too. Fortunately true bigots are rare in both sides of the Atlantic, so why give them power by playing their game?

I think I’ll not repeat myself more over this issue.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
So I tell you; the point here is not if they are right or wrong, the point is they (the people) do it because they have reasons to believe in the peace solution. Claiming they oppose you here because “they are anti-Americans” is simply refusing to face their reasons and to refuse democratic debate.

We've tried the peace solution. He kicke out the inspectors - which according to the agreement made at the end of the Gulf War was that military action would commence. The US and Britain lobbed a few bombs - the world took no action. So now he has been free for 4 years to continue with his weapons programs.

So you actually think that gives you more than the merest glimpse about Europeans? First hand would be to live here, for a long time. I’m sure you would agree the same is true about America.

Yes - but I've heard enough Europeans state everything about Americans. Last year - I will go again with the anti-American comments - there were many posts from Europeans making accusations with no idea how the US government works or anything about state governments or anything about Americans themselves. But one thing at least seperated me from them - I have at least BEEN to Europe (England) and I have at least studied European History.

Patriotism is a double edge sword. While it have its positive points, it blinds those who live it too intensely towards facts, and allows people to be led by obscure characters for their own dark schemes. You like to talk about WWII; that should give you a good hint why we distrust it.

Sorry - but we're not goosestepping down the streets of Washington. We're proud of our country and we're not afraid to express it. If it bothers - oh well.

Yes, I’m tired of it too, even if it is usually just Americans complaining to have been called it, somewhere. And yet some Americans do not seem to refrain to use even worse epithets about others, too. Fortunately true bigots are rare in both sides of the Atlantic, so why give them power by playing their game?

I'll have you know that Americans are VERY welcoming to outsiders. For one thing - our nation is made up of outsiders. No matter what country you come from, once you become a citizen of this country - you are an American. When visitors come to this country we are always nice - and not superficial nice either. I'd like to know what worse epithets you think we say to visitors from other countries.

[Elvellon]

but I'm not willing to wait for him to use them or to give them to some terrorist organisation. When the time comes and he does supply them with bio and cemical weapons

Look. He is supposed to have them, right ?
Now then, the surest reason he may have to use them is if he is attacked, so, if you strike him to avoid an attack, that seems a rather pointless thing to do.
But, if he does not uses those weapons, even if under the extreme case of an attack against him, it also becomes pointless to attack him because of it.
On the other hand, the threat of his destruction if he uses them should work, since his first goal is to keep his power.

He can easily sell them or he can do exactly what North Korea is doing right now. You want a situation like North Korea in the Middle East?

Frankly I don’t see Saddan separating himself of his “precioussssss” for anything in the world.

If you want to worry about terrorists getting their hand on those kind of weapons think of the Russia mafia & co.

We looked at diplomacy before. Obviously that hasn't worked. Look at North Korea as example. And by the way - we have been working toward a resolution in regards to North Korea.

Again - North Korea is a perfect example. North Korea was contained. North Korea had nuclear inspectors. North Korea has now torn up their treaties and have said "give us money or we will blow you away. If you sanction us - we will consider that as a decaration of war

North Korea was always treated in a very, very different tone, I might say.

1441 wasn't about proving that Hussien had the weapons. Hussein was supposed to declare everything he had. Even Hans Blix has said that tons of VX nerve gas has NOT been accounted for by Iraq. That they have missiles which gone beyond their limits. That they have continued to comply with 17 resolutions to date. Now we are working on an 18th resolution - another resolution that Hussein can take and use as a door mat.

Nor was I saying it was. Yet, like I said before, this is not only about “doing the right thing”, but also of how to do it.
For over a decade the Iraqi situation hardly mattered, during that time he was contained. Now, suddenly, without any new dramatic action from Iraq, what was considered a mild problem and a low threat is now considered a major one. It is not very difficult to see that if those faults weren’t seen as a reason then, then the people will have a hard time seeing why they are now.
Further, liking or not, the way Bush is handling the problem hampered his case a lot.

[Elvellon]

Yes - but I've heard enough Europeans state everything about Americans. Last year - I will go again with the anti-American comments - there were many posts from Europeans making accusations with no idea how the US government works or anything about state governments or anything about Americans themselves. But one thing at least seperated me from them - I have at least BEEN to Europe (England) and I have at least studied European History.

I’ll not return to the Anti-American thing, I believe I have stated clearly my opinion before.

Sorry - but we're not goosestepping down the streets of Washington. We're proud of our country and we're not afraid to express it. If it bothers - oh well.

Actually you are the one that seems bothered because we distrust it, and it is not yours, it is “it” in general.

I'll have you know that Americans are VERY welcoming to outsiders. For one thing - our nation is made up of outsiders. No matter what country you come from, once you become a citizen of this country - you are an American. When visitors come to this country we are always nice - and not superficial nice either. I'd like to know what worse epithets you think we say to visitors from other countries.

Eurowimps, cowards, Nazis, lazy, presumptuous/arrogant <inset nationality>, Eurotrash, parasites, and other generally colourful sobriquets.

The point is, those that say these kind of things are a minority, in both sides of the Atlantic , so I repeat; why play their games?

BTW, I was not speaking in particular of tourists going there.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Look. He is supposed to have them, right ?
Now then, the surest reason he may have to use them is if he is attacked, so, if you strike him to avoid an attack, that seems a rather pointless thing to do.
But, if he does not uses those weapons, even if under the extreme case of an attack against him, it also becomes pointless to attack him because of it.
On the other hand, the threat of his destruction if he uses them should work, since his first goal is to keep his power.

Yeah - that worked with Hitler and is working with North Korea just great. History shows that mad regimes do not just "sit" on their stock pile of weapons. They use them either as blackmail, us them to attack, or they sell them.

Frankly I don’t see Saddan separating himself of his “precioussssss” for anything in the world.

keep dreaming then - the world is a much nicer place if you ignore reality.

If you want to worry about terrorists getting their hand on those kind of weapons think of the Russia mafia & co.

I do - but at least Russia is stable now and doesn't have a madman it's helm.

North Korea was always treated in a very, very different tone, I might say.

In there weird twisted minds they were. The US had no intentions of invading North Korea. We have about 50,000 troops in South Korea, compared to a million soldiers in North Korea. Think about it - how were they threatened?

Nor was I saying it was. Yet, like I said before, this is not only about “doing the right thing”, but also of how to do it.
For over a decade the Iraqi situation hardly mattered, during that time he was contained. Now, suddenly, without any new dramatic action from Iraq, what was considered a mild problem and a low threat is now considered a major one. It is not very difficult to see that if those faults weren’t seen as a reason then, then the people will have a hard time seeing why they are now.
Further, liking or not, the way Bush is handling the problem hampered his case a lot.

No - iraq did matter. The world just chose to ignore it. The US and Britain have been keeping watch on the no fly zones and protecting the Kurds and Si'ites for 10 years. Also - the Middle East situation has changed after 9/11. We did it the UN way - and that has failed.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Actually you are the one that seems bothered because we distrust it, and it is not yours, it is “it” in general.

Well we're not going to change our attitude toward our country to please outsiders view of how we should act.

Eurowimps, cowards, Nazis, lazy, presumptuous/arrogant <inset nationality>, Eurotrash, parasites, and other generally colourful sobriquets.

Well we never called Europeans Nazis, or lazy or parasites. Arrogant does fit a lot of times (expecially when Europeans talk about their culture). But you did forget the latest - Eurowhiners.

[Elvellon]

keep dreaming then - the world is a much nicer place if you ignore reality

Yes it is, you, for instance, never gave a good valid reason why he would want to do it, yet there are several reasons why he wouldn’t do it.

I do - but at least Russia is stable now and doesn't have a madman it's helm.

Since Putin doesn’t control the Russian mafia that fact doesn’t seems very reassuring.

there weird twisted minds they were. The US had no intentions of invading North Korea. We have about 50,000 troops in South Korea, compared to a million soldiers in North Korea. Think about it - how were they threatened?

Precisely, they weren’t, (nor are), in the least.

Well we're not going to change our attitude toward our country to please outsiders view of how we should act.

And who cares? You brought that issue up in the first place.

Well we never called Europeans Nazis, or lazy or parasites. Arrogant does fit a lot of times (expecially when Europeans talk about their culture). But you did forget the latest - Eurowhiners

You mean you never saw it, but I did. But frankly, what that kind of people says it is not something even worth discussing.

As for arrogance, it is a flaw that can be seen in some people of both sides of the Atlantic.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Yes it is, you, for instance, never gave a good valid reason why he would want to do it, yet there are several reasons why he wouldn’t do it.

Yes I did - you just don't want to accept them. You'd rather stick your head in the ground, ignore the problem like Europe generally does - until it becomes too late.

You think he's just developing weapons for the fun of it? He himself has declared that his goal is and has been to take control of the Middle East. I don't know how much more he has to say for Europe to wake up to what his plans would be once he has enough weapons. It might have been back in the 1980's when he declared this openly - but if you think his plans have changed then you're blinded even more than I thought. Oh and Iraq will be an even better place once his son takes the reins.