Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

OK, I'm back! I've had a bit of rest, some lunch, and some hot tea by my side - and I'm ready to jump back into this thread!

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Yes... I do think God exists. Why have I not noticed God's presence in my life (in a more obvious way than God occurs in everyone's lives)? Beats me!

Well, after two or three attempts to get you to figure out the answer (which I think is by FAR the best way to come up with an answer), I guess I'll just give it to you : IMHO, the reason why you don't see transformation/God's presence in your life is *drum roll* because you aren't around Him! Look at what you're saying - you don't read the Bible, and you don't plan to get one until a year or so?! And you wonder why you don't notice God's presence? You goofball!

It's like saying, "I knew John Smith when I was younger, and I have great memories of him, and he really influenced me because he was really wise and good. I'd like to have him influence my life now, but I don't communicate with him at all, even tho I could at any time, and I just don't understand why he's not influencing my life anymore!"

Nurvs - if you really - REALLY - want to have your life touched in a powerful and great way by God, then it's up to you! Until we can see Him face to face, we need to read His word (consider it a love letter to you ) and pray. If you don't communicate with someone, they won't touch your life at all. My daughter hasn't touched your life, right? That's because you haven't ever talked with her.

If you DO decide to get a Bible and read it, then just ask God to speak to you thru its pages. He will. And pray! which is just talking with God - be totally honest, like "God, what a crummy day today! I'm so frustrated because I lost my temper again! Please help me to have more patience and understanding with that person!"

Anyway, again, it's totally up to you. As that verse in Revelation says, Jesus is standing at the door of your heart and knocking. IF you let Him in - IF - then He will be with you in a very real and transforming way.

[Beor]

mind if I butt in?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

hawking speaks of one theory in his first book about a universe that is kind of like a four-dimensional donut... instead of seeing a beginning and end (i.e. big bang), it is a constant cycle of energy/matter which slowly twists in upon itself and renews... the particular theory was more an experiment to him than anything else... but the data was surprisingly consistant with what we observe

one must remember that theories involving things like our universe are themselves based upon theories and assumptions... there were some very accurate and exacting theories when it was thought the sun was the center of our solar system... so accurate that predictions of planetary movement, while not perfect, were extremely good... it was not until the system was thrown out that an even better "sun centric" theory was developed... the same could easily be true about today's theories of the universe

So do these theories have any impact (or should they) on your day-to-day life and the decisions you make? Does it matter which one is right?

more theory based upon theory

About as strongly proven a theory as exists, tho.

complexity does not necessitate intelligent design... look at a spider web then give the spider and IQ test

Ugh! Spiders! *shivers*
Seems like an intelligent designer could have designed a spider with some great instincts and equipped it with some good tools

humans like to think it does, 'cause it makes us feel special... kind of like "mini-creators"... but in the end i think it is time that creates complexity

Wait - what makes us feel "special"?

much like our lives have "beginnings and endings" ...

Hmm, seems like a hint from somewhere ...

we like to apply the same to all we observe... and as scientists we like to tie up loose ends... we love to create "constants" when developing our theories and assume the observer is outside of the experiment... in reality, we are part of any experiment we perform, and it may very well be that we are so intricately intwined that we cannot even come up with "facts" that are not tainted by our own point of view

If we're part of it, then our reality includes this fact. If we're part of it, then we CAN'T go outside our POV, anyway - we can only come up with what we see from our POV, which is a fact.

multi-dimensional space and an infinite universe are a few examples of this... we can't put our minds around it, so we impose limits and try to shape theories that fit within those limits

I don't see scientists doing this, really - I think that we can grasp parts of big things, altho not all - and as long as we recognize this, it's ok.

sorry, but there isn't too much more to it... other than to say that one must approach any of these questions with a completely open mind... and while often depending upon prior theories, have the willingness to throw the entire lot out the window if a better solution is arrived at... most groundbreaking theories throughout history did just that

Well, I don't remember what this is referring to! so I'll have to get back to it.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Beor

mind if I butt in?

Oh, hi, Beor! You're welcome anytime!

Could you please pop to the first post of this thread, so you can see how this thread is run? Brownie is on the "hot seat" now - check out the first post, then get out your questions and go for it!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i don't like giving epic posts 'cause i don't usually like to read them myself ...

*makes vows to make her posts smaller*

...and they can tend to stray the mind from the big concepts...

I think it's important to look at the small things, too. It seems to me that a danger of looking only at big concepts is that the actual doing is lost - i.e., one can muse about grand concepts of love and compassion, and then get mad at the child that interrupts the grand musings ... do you see what I mean? I think there's a balance to be found here. One can decide that love and compassion are important, and then one needs to think, "now how can I actually carry this out in my life here and now?"

speaking of children - I just got a call from school, and my daughter is having some trouble with asthma - it's a stinkin' windy day here today - gotta go pick her up! I'll get to the rest of your post later

[Lizra]

Whoa! Beor! Hi dude!

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

speaking of children - I just got a call from school, and my daughter is having some trouble with asthma - it's a stinkin' windy day here today - gotta go pick her up! I'll get to the rest of your post later

I believe... turn on a hot shower. Get the air all steamy, let her sit in their and read.

I hope she's OK. Asthma is really painful.

[Rían]

Thanks, Elfhelm Thankfully, she doesn't have a bad case - it only flares up twice a year or so, but today, ANYONE would have trouble breathing! The avocados are blowing off the tree! We're happily inside now, and she's playing Gamecube with her brother.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Brownjenkins hasn't been active much lately so are we going to wait or have a temporary hotseater?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Brownjenkins hasn't been active much lately so are we going to wait or have a temporary hotseater?

i heard that!!

yeah been busy with holidays... some things i have to send out... and, um, a chapter summary i owe on the discussion project

feel free to move along and i will address rÃ*an's comments at a future, but undisclosed, moment... since my answers are essentially timeless

[Rían]

brownie, I see you're on now - I've had trouble getting on lately, too, and I have in-laws descending on the house in two days for the holidays, who will prob. stay until next week - do you want to take a Christmas break (since many of us celebrate Christmas) and start up again next year?

[BeardofPants]

One of those things is System Shock, right? Poor frazzled Tom. *huggles*

[Rían]

What's System Shock?

ps - BOP, your siggy reminds me of one of my favorite t-shirts:


"God is dead" - Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead" - God

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

One of those things is System Shock, right? Poor frazzled Tom. *huggles*

on the very top, of course

sure rÃ*an, my solution for peace and harmony among all humanity can certainly wait a few weeks

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What's System Shock?

ps - BOP, your siggy reminds me of one of my favorite t-shirts:


"God is dead" - Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead" - God

It's an old-ish computer game that I am nuts over... Tom is ostensibly sending it to me sometime this millennium.

Btw: I love that quote by nietzsche! Didja ever manage to track down the quote in its entirety? He must've had one awesome sense of humour.

[Wayfarer]

System Shock 1 or 2? I find SS2 to be quite enjoyable, although it's got some serious mechanical flaws (such as the annoying lack of game balance), but the game was fun and had a good atmosphere. I'm not as familiar with the original SS.

Incidentally, where is that quote in your sig from? It reminds me of his bit on 'Master and Slave Moralities from 'Beyond Good and Evil'. Although I remember him saying it in a less general fashion - that "Morality in europe today is herd animal morality", which is merely one sort (and a lower sort) of morality. But then, I haven't read much of Nietzche because of issues in availability. Strangely enough, there is a great deal of his writings which agree with my own observation and understanding, although of course I ultimately draw quite different conclusions than he does.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

System Shock 1 or 2? I find SS2 to be quite enjoyable, although it's got some serious mechanical flaws (such as the annoying lack of game balance), but the game was fun and had a good atmosphere. I'm not as familiar with the original SS.

original SS for the old macintosh os... quite an adventure in the finding

[BeardofPants]

Shannon: I can't remember off-hand where I read it - The Gay Science? - (and I may have mangled it from its original context). And I'm after the original System Shock from '95. SS2 was good, but like you say, it had some hiccups.

And it WAS quite the adventure in the finding... I'm gonna owe you lots of pants for this one, Tom.

[brownjenkins]

to return to the topic at hand...

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

So do these theories have any impact (or should they) on your day-to-day life and the decisions you make? Does it matter which one is right?

no they really don't matter day to day for the most part... which is exactly what i'd say about the existance of god or the veracity of any given belief system... the advice about life can be very important, whether from christian, buddhist or muslim sources... the fact that it may or may not come from some "greater being" doesn't matter much, at least as far as this life on earth is concerned

About as strongly proven a theory as exists, tho.

far from it... but a rather solid theory for the moment, at least until a better idea comes along that fits observation even better

Ugh! Spiders! *shivers*
Seems like an intelligent designer could have designed a spider with some great instincts and equipped it with some good tools

or maybe, just maybe, it came about through natural selection

Wait - what makes us feel "special"?

most people do not want to think about the idea that we may have just developed from animals, they see it as a threat to their belief systems... if we developed intelligence, what's to say that some time in the future some other animal may not develop to the level that we have... maybe even competing with us... the idea that god "had to make something as complicated as the universe" shelters us from this possibility

Hmm, seems like a hint from somewhere ...

the "hint" is that we frame our surroundings from our own pov... it's all we can do... but it may very well limit us from seeing the "reality" of existance

If we're part of it, then our reality includes this fact. If we're part of it, then we CAN'T go outside our POV, anyway - we can only come up with what we see from our POV, which is a fact.

correct, and to us it might as well be fact, but that does not mean it actually is... my father is colorblind, to him red and green look like the same color... and as far as he is concerned they are the same color... yet they are not, are they?

I don't see scientists doing this, really - I think that we can grasp parts of big things, altho not all - and as long as we recognize this, it's ok.

some do, some don't... most are like to think that certain theories are so well supported that they might as well be fact... this is a mistake, and ultimately a blinder to future discoveries

Well, I don't remember what this is referring to! so I'll have to get back to it.

me neither

but in short, keep and open mind and always be willing to question everything

[Elfhelm]

brownie, I can ask one.

You seem to accept the world we experience as reality, but you are also aware that what you are responding to is a construct built out of selective perception in your own head. How do you know it isn't an illusion? Is it possible that one day you'll turn around and see the shapes casting the shadows on the cave wall and they won't be anything like what you thought? Could this whole life be just a big test, or a riddle, or a game? What I'm ultimately asking is, aren't people of science also making statements of faith when they talk about "the world" even though they know that their brains only get a highly distilled and infinitesimally small samping of the world, if it even exists at all?