Abortion.

[klatukatt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

It is killing. An instrument is inserted into the woman and slices apart a living human being. The foetus can see that instrument and responds to its presence. It feels pain and experiences fear.

Not in the least. Foetuses at 12 weeks have all of their organs formed. From that point on, it is just further development of those organs. On the ultrasound, you can watch foetuses of that age sucking their thumbs and bouncing around a bit, moving of their own choice. They have developed brains. They can recognize danger and respond to it, and they have control of their own bodies.

I don't believe that a fetus is alive anymore than a tapeworm is alive.


Aw screw it. I don't know what I'm saying half the time. I think I make a valid point, and then my brain comes back and says "you're an idiot." Maybe I should be euthanized.

There is so much death in the world anyway. Why should anyone care about one more death? No one can judge or play god on this. There is no court that can truly decide where life begins or what life is or when it ends.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

Men and women have complete and total equality?

You're hilarious, my friend.

Name me ways in which laws don't apply to women as they do to men, in the US. Name me opportunities that the law prevents women having, in the US.

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

Is it killing? Yes. However, there are justifiable means by law to kill people, such as to protect one's home or family or life, etc.

Yes, these being times where the other person is attacking you and trying to kill you.

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

Abortion is not murder, which is very different from killing, because murder is defined as "the unlawful taking of life", and abortion is currently legal in most areas of the Western world.

Okay. So Hitler and Stalin weren't committing murder either, since they made the law and hence were acting very lawfully.

In that case, the word "murder" is no different, ethically, from the word "killing." So why draw a distinction by saying that abortion is not murder?

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

I disagree with life support. I think it's trying to outlive the fact that human beings are organic creatures that have to perish and must die eventually. Life support drags out the process of dying for most people, and it does not often help them back to full health.

In fact, we can take this line of reasoning further and say that since many sick people wouldn't get well on their own, but are instead dependent on medical technology to survive, they too can be killed. So drop all cancer research! And all AIDS studying to break that disease! And drop malaria cures! With any disease or condition where people couldn't survive on their own, but are supported by technology, we are justified in killing them. In fact, we really should just throw out the whole medical profession.

The point of the medical profession is to help people who can't help themselves. If we're instead going to let people who can't help themselves die, then the whole profession is pointless.

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

What are we, trying to live forever? Sorry, not going to happen.

I'd rather die with some dignity.

And let the same go for everyone else, whether they feel the same way or not .

I'll respond to the rest of your post a bit later.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by klatukatt

Abortion isn't even killing, yet it is frowned upon.

It hardly is, anymore, in contemporary society.

You are comparing abortion to mass murder. Don't you think that is a little over the top?

Can't you see that, given the premise that an unborn infant is a person, that is exactly what abortion is?

No one harps on the the Church because of the Crusades.

Heh. No, of course they don't.

We automatically lump all murderers into the "insane" category.
Does anyone ever think that this might be one of Nature's ways of telling us that we are overpopulating the earth?

All it tells me is that we are clueless.

Does anyone ever listen to what the planet is trying to tell us? We are destroying the Earth and now she is getting back at us!

Do you believe the Earth is an intelligent organism?

I don't believe that a fetus is alive anymore than a tapeworm is alive.

There is so much death in the world anyway. Why should anyone care about one more death?

Because the death is caused intentionally by another human being.

No one can judge or play god on this.

But isn't that exactly what a doctor does when he performs an abortion?

There is no court that can truly decide where life begins or what life is or when it ends.

If no one can say for certain life begins at such and such a point, then it might or might not be there. To me, the possibility of life being there is enough to not meddle with it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

Is it killing? Yes. However, there are justifiable means by law to kill people, such as to protect one's home or family or life, etc.

But those are cases of necessity, and caused by the wrongdoing of the kill-ee.

Abortion is not murder, which is very different from killing, because murder is defined as "the unlawful taking of life", and abortion is currently legal in most areas of the Western world.

What it is is unconstitutional.

I'd rather die with some dignity.

Every human being dies with dignity; you cannot take the innate dignity of the human person away from him or her.




Relative doesn't mean valid. It means invalid. No one's beliefs really matter. Every law and every rule we follow is man-made in order to support an orderly government and way of life for a human society.

For me, my right and wrong is not someone else's right and wrong, and I have no right to impose that upon them. Stalin disagrees with me, so as a result, I would have fought against him because I disagreed.

But it's an endless cycle, really. People like you and me just continue it on.




I think the difference between abortion and killing people is that a person, fully capable of thought and fully developed to the degree of memory and awareness of their world, knows she or he is being killed.

Whereas, a fetus is not fully developed and has no such awareness.

Do you have any memories from being a fetus?

So, yes, there's a difference.




No, you're missing the point. Relative doesn't mean "okay." Relative means it doesn't matter. We're all still going to fight over these things, I am just saying NO ONE IS RIGHT OR WRONG.

We're just throwing our opinions around. That's what it boils down to.




“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
- William Shakespeare

I don't believe in good and evil. I just believe in pain and the fact that we all feel it and that's simply a part of life.[/QUOTE]

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

Relative doesn't mean valid. It means invalid. No one's beliefs really matter. Every law and every rule we follow is man-made in order to support an orderly government and way of life for a human society.

Well, since when is an "orderly government" valid? That having an orderly government is beneficial to society is also a belief, and hence invalid.

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

For me, my right and wrong is not someone else's right and wrong, and I have no right to impose that upon them. Stalin disagrees with me, so as a result, I would have fought against him because I disagreed.

That sounds like imposing your views of right and wrong on him, to me.

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

I think the difference between abortion and killing people is that a person, fully capable of thought and fully developed to the degree of memory and awareness of their world, knows she or he is being killed.

Whereas, a fetus is not fully developed and has no such awareness.

Actually, I saw a video of a 12 week old foetus being aborted, and he was wriggling away in fear from the instrument the doctor was trying to use to kill him. He even opened his mouth, silently screaming. He was feeling the emotion of fear, and he also felt panic and pain. So he does have awareness.

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

Do you have any memories from being a fetus?

So, yes, there's a difference.

Neither do I have any memories of being 1 year old. Should we be killing 1 year olds, then?

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

No, you're missing the point. Relative doesn't mean "okay." Relative means it doesn't matter. We're all still going to fight over these things, I am just saying NO ONE IS RIGHT OR WRONG.

We're just throwing our opinions around. That's what it boils down to.

So relative means Martin Luther King Jr.'s actions on behalf of the blacks were morally no different from Hitler slaughtering the Jews? Just so we're clear.

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
- William Shakespeare

I don't believe in good and evil. I just believe in pain and the fact that we all feel it and that's simply a part of life.

Okay. Good to be clear on this.

Many people I've met who believe in relativism don't believe this. And I've met agnostics who have different views about what that means. So thanks for clarifying this for me.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by klatukatt

I don't believe that a fetus is alive anymore than a tapeworm is alive.

At 12 weeks, the foetus has all its organs fully formed. It won't get any new organs from that time on. The ones it has just get bigger. So it's already a fully formed human being that just needs to grow and develop further as it grows. It can experience emotions and take intelligent action. Those are not the abilities of a tapeworm.

Originally Posted by klatukatt

There is so much death in the world anyway. Why should anyone care about one more death?

There have been about 1.5 billion abortions worldwide since Roe v. Wade alone. That's 1/7 of the world population right there, not counting abortions before that US court decision. Even if one doesn't see one death as important in the vast scheme of things, we are clearly talking about an unfathomable number of deaths.

Originally Posted by klatukatt

No one can judge or play god on this. There is no court that can truly decide where life begins or what life is or when it ends.

On the contrary, it is well known that the human foetus is very much alive. You can see its heart beating. At eight weeks, all the child's major internal structures and organ systems are developed and working. At twelve weeks, all the child's organs are developed.

So one can see that not only is this a human life, but it is a developed human life before the end of the first trimester.

And if it is unclear when before that time, this child can be called a person, we should err on the side of caution and say never. Because the development of a human is a constant, fluid process. There is no abrupt drop-off point at which the child becomes a person- the whole development is a fluid process without huge lurches. So any line set that says, "you can kill the child before this point," is strictly arbitrary.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

And if it is unclear when before that time, this child can be called a person, we should err on the side of caution and say never.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and guess you meant "always".

[klatukatt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

On the contrary, it is well known that the human foetus is very much alive. You can see its heart beating. At eight weeks, all the child's major internal structures and organ systems are developed and working. At twelve weeks, all the child's organs are developed.

So one can see that not only is this a human life, but it is a developed human life before the end of the first trimester.

And if it is unclear when before that time, this child can be called a person, we should err on the side of caution and say never. Because the development of a human is a constant, fluid process. There is no abrupt drop-off point at which the child becomes a person- the whole development is a fluid process without huge lurches. So any line set that says, "you can kill the child before this point," is strictly arbitrary.

Let me see if I can get this out correctly.

We kill animals because they are not centiant and obviously below humans. Babies are much like animals, aside from not being able to take care of themeselves.
Where does a child/fetus change from an animal into a human?

[Rána Eressëa]

Why are all these things that have nothing to do with abortion being brought into the thread by you in reply to my statements, Lief Erikson?

Seriously, I think you need to get more on topic than that.

As for abortion, I will never listen to any person who tells me I have no right over what my body is used for. I don't care what's in my body. I'm not a incubator if I don't want to be.

This is why men and women will never really be equals. Women are seen as nothing more than vessels for bearing more human life and should have no say over what their body is capable of.

I'm leaving the thread now and not coming back again. I've said my piece, and really, that's all there is to it.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Rána Eressëa

As for abortion, I will never listen to any person who tells me I have no right over what my body is used for. I don't care what's in my body. I'm not a incubator if I don't want to be.

This is why men and women will never really be equals. Women are seen as nothing more than vessels for bearing more human life and should have no say over what their body is capable of.

And yet, despite the protests that say that women aren't just factories, we treat foetuses as nothing more than a factory product, to be tossed at will.

[hectorberlioz]

[klatukatt]

Just a political statement: I am decidedly NONPARTISAN. I think most races should be NONPARTISAN. I mean, they can be supported by whoever they want, but we don't need "partisan primaries" if we could do simple run off primaries.

ANYWAY, back to ABORTION...

I learned an interesting fact today. Most abortions are terminated by the body before the female even knows about it. They aren't miscarages because there is no damage done.
It is when a week old embryo has somthing wrong with it, so it is absorbed back into the body.

The ratio of this happening is about five times to every one pregnancy.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I'm guessing you mean five times to every completed pregnancy?

[Butterbeer]

But both trees and unborn children are both inarticulate -

how would the undecided ever judge if this was the case?

[hectorberlioz]

edited: Never Ye Mind

[Butterbeer]

I will, if you will ....


(oh ok ..we should agree that we both won't! )

'never mind' that is....

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

But both trees and unborn children are both inarticulate -

how would the undecided ever judge if this was the case?

Let's start off like this: explain how on earth is that even remotely important, and then explain how the cartoon is wrong.

And btw BB, you're not going to clean out that pig sty PM box of yours?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

And yet, despite the protests that say that women aren't just factories, we treat foetuses as nothing more than a factory product, to be tossed at will.

*AHEM*

I can't believe this comment of mine gets ignored everytime I get a chance to post it...

[Butterbeer]

Let's start off like this: explain how on earth that is even remotely important, and then explain how the cartoon is wrong.

well, you posted it - (the cartoon) if it ain't worth nothin' - that's your call ...


as for my reply - who said anything about wrong?

my point was, if the terminally undecided obviously need to be TOLD what to think - how, then, would they decide between two inarticulates? i.e. a tree and an unborn child / foetus?

(if you need to) Think about it!

And btw BB, you're not going to clean out that pig sty PM box of yours?

Hardly - all gems in there.

A 94 limit in 2007??? - someone in a position of *ahem* authority ... should campaign to bring this up to a current level - 500 for example

[hectorberlioz]

I still don't get it

So what if trees and babies are unthinking?

PS: I'm workin' on it.