02-23-2007, 12:02 PM | #861 |
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Well, tell me why you reject the 6,000 year old Earth, women submitting to men, and the passages about Moses and the golden calf, and then I expect I'll be able to explain.
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02-23-2007, 02:53 PM | #862 | |
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02-23-2007, 03:07 PM | #863 | |
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02-23-2007, 03:33 PM | #864 | |||
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02-23-2007, 06:07 PM | #865 | ||||
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*Waits for BJ to respond to the rest of his post. Impatiently . . . * Quote:
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The one in Isaiah 14, I agree isn't exactly explicit. Many of the prophecies of the Messiah aren't explicit either. Yet the Protestants I know do think of the Isaiah verses as referring to Lucifer. The other one, it seems we agree is pretty clear. I'd assume you're thinking of the same one as I am, where Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." When Protestants think of the fall of Satan, those I've met always refer to scripture to explain the belief. It may have been established in Catholic tradition also, but if it wasn't in the Bible, I doubt that Protestants would be as likely to hold to it.
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02-24-2007, 03:20 AM | #866 | ||||
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1. 6000 year old Earth. The 6000 year-old Earth theory [link] was formed by a mathematically-inclined person (or people?) who, IIRC, added up all the time periods mentioned contigiously in the Bible starting from Genesis to arrive at the Earth's age which is slightly less than 6000 years. (Though I think Young Earth Creationists say between 6000 and 10'000 years.) I think it's more complex than that, but that's the gist of the theory. I don't have a problem with the scholarship employed in formulating the theory, however one key point was missed. The parts of the Bible around generations were not meant to be taken literally. In the social context of the time, when knowledge was passed down from oral histories, the exact year wasn't always imortant. This might seem stupid to us now, but it's simply a different way of transmitting knowledge, and is actually not stupid at all. Along similar lines, Adam did not really live to be 930 years old, and Seth did not live to 912 years, etc. Personally I subscribe to the theory that the earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, because we understand the cultural context under which the theory was formulated, so we can say that this theory really means what we think it means, rather than misinterpreting what the original authors meant when describing generation lengths. That said, I don't think it's stupid to subscribe to this theory, I just think there are better theories. 2. Women submitting to men When I read the Bible (on those rare occasions, hahaha) or pray successfully (by which I mean I hear what God is saying to me), God is speaking to me. God has never told me that I am of less worth than my husband or of any man. I was looking for what Paul wrote about marriage when I found this instead, and I am drawing a huge blank on this passage: Quote:
Questions on these passages: Co 11:1 Who is this author exactly? Why does he (they?) claim to be an imitator of Christ? What would that entail? Co 11:3 This passage seems to be describing a hierarchy from God to Christ to men to women. But why? As far as I know, neither God nor Jesus ever directly describe such a thing. What is this passage really about? What is the point? Similairly... Co 11:4 - 5Shaved head? Covered? Uncovered? Humans have continued to worship God, but our cultures have evolved over time. The only thing Canadian society has to say about head gear, or lack thereof, is that it's rude to wear a hat at dinner. It's generally considered impolite to wear hats indoors, but no one really minds if women wear hats in church, probably because of this passage. So, how is this relevant to society now? For that matter, how is any of the passages of Corinthians I quoted relevant? If God really meant for men to be the bosses just because they have a twig and berries, I'll eat my hat. Or at least a large meal near my hat. The Bible is holy, but that does not mean we have to follow every last detail even if they do not make sense to us. I think it's dangerous to go along with something that you don't understand simply because you feel you should. I feel the quoted Corinthians passages illustrate my point; if I undermined my own self-worth because I think Corinthians is saying that the man is in charge of the woman, I would do a great deal of harm to myself and other women (such as a possible future daughter) who might follow my example. And if this passage was not saying men are in charge of women, I would have done great harm for no reason at all. Some day, I'm going to sit down and really study the Bible, because I want to know what the heck everyone is talking about, and why.
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02-25-2007, 08:33 PM | #867 | ||
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Nurv, you'll have to do some emptying of your PM box. I can't respond to your most recent message!
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This said, I think all the questions you asked about these passages are GREAT questions, and we should come to understand the passages and God's morality through them. We must humbly keep in mind that his ways are not always our ways, though. I agree with you that some parts of what's written there are cultural. Which doesn't mean they weren't the perfectly right thing for people to do at that time, but in this culture they make less sense. In their culture, having the head uncovered in public, for a woman, meant that she was sexually promiscuous and had loose morals. So for women to go to church in that fashion would be incredibly disrespectful- rather like showing up in church today in a bikini. Nowadays, head covering doesn't have anywhere near the same cultural implications, so it isn't necessary. And that's a literal response to a literal reading of that passage. I'll respond to the rest of your post soon!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-25-2007, 09:28 PM | #868 |
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Nurv! Clean Your PM Box!
Nurvvy, I have an important message to relay...please hurry
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02-26-2007, 12:20 AM | #869 | |
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It seems to me like you are trying to have it both ways again.
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02-26-2007, 01:38 AM | #870 | |||||||
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You seem to be painting humans as little more than god's pets. Quote:
Take Adam and Eve for example. In a nutshell god says, "you can do whatever you like, but don't eat the fruit or you are going to be sorry." They have a choice to make and they know, at least to some extent, what choice god expects of them. Are you saying that Adam didn't really have a choice? That he was predestined by god to eat the apple. This would mean, logically, that god intended for him to eat the apple. That's all fine and well, but it kind of throws the idea of responsibility out the window. There's no pride, but there is also no humility, all that is left is pure obedience. Quote:
If you are broke and really want a new CD, whether or not you try to shoplift it from the store has nothing to do with "choice". It is a result of a combination of genetics (which influences personality) and upbringing (which also influences personality). In the end, you always make one "choice". Humans just believe that they would have been free to make another because they have a mind that is developed enough to be able to imagine having made the other choice. All that said, in terms of religion and the rules that surround most of them, it seems as if you must believe in free will. If not, why bother to preach to people all the time about how they should act when it comes to important decisions if they are not really in control of that decision-making? Quote:
Everything someone does is their "personality", from what they choose to have to drink on a given evening to how they make decisions that may effect others. Take away one and you take away all. Back to the religious point of view, there are only so many options: 1) Total free will: You can do whatever you like, and if you make the right choices, god saves you. 2) Predestination: You have no control over the important decisions in your life and it is god that will determine whether or not you are saved, and make you act accordingly. How, from your point of view, can anyone be held responsible for their salvation, either by another human or by god himself, if they have no control over that salvation? Or do you believe that we are not responsible for it? I'm sure that if Harry Potter turned evil, all except the most-demented would blame Rowling, and not the character Harry Potter. Quote:
Is the above what you believe, more or less? Quote:
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I'm sure that any small human society is probably the same today as it was 10,000 years ago. And by "small society" I mean what might have been your clan in the stone age and today is your family and coworkers, or even your internet friends. A vast majority are good, respectful people. Most think about themselves first and foremost, but they have a lot of concern for those around them as well because they realize, whether conciously or subconciously, the interdependance. What's developed over the years are better forms of large human societies. Call it societal evolution. An understanding that what's good for the clan is good for the town, is good for the country, and is ultimately good for the world. This is why you see that the most successful countries in our time tend to be the most democratic and the most respectful of individual's rights. This does not mean that another Hitler couldn't pop up tomorrow. But I'd say that it is much more unlikely these days, especially in the countries that have established democracies, for a Hitler to be able to take over and thus enforce the will of one individual, for good or evil, over a vast population. Contrast that to a few thousand years ago when almost every society was more or less authoritarian. On all humanity being dust one day? Sure, we could get hit by an asteroid 100 years from now and no one might survive it. But, in my mind, that's like worrying about the afterlife. Don't lose sleep over what you can't control. Pride? That's a word with many meanings. You can be proud of a certain accomplishment while still acknowledging that you could never have succeeded without all the people that helped along the way, which is a certain humility as well. Sometimes you can have it both ways.
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02-26-2007, 01:39 AM | #871 | |
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The Apostle Paul said, "I become all things to all men that I might win them for Christ." He was referring to his taking on the different customs of other cultures and ways of life and accepting them, differ though they did from his own, in order to bring the essential truth to those involved in those societies that it might change their lives. God, according to the Bible, doesn't change. His principles, his morality, is likewise universal and unchanging, as are the moral laws he established that span the universe. We don't get to play with that at all. Human cultures are an altogether different matter, though. I'll respond to your next post when I may .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-26-2007 at 01:41 AM. |
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02-26-2007, 03:28 AM | #872 | |||
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Hector and Lief, I have flushed the box.
I don't have time to respond to your post now Lief, but I bet I will tomorrow when I'm at the university campus. Edit: Quote:
I suppose there are different way to take things literally, then. But you seem to use the word "literal" interchangeably with the word "correct". When you say "I read this passage literally" what I am hearing is "I read this passage in the correct manner." A literal interpretation of the above passage would be saying that because this passage says it's wrong for a woman to pray with her head uncovered, it is therefore wrong for a woman to pray with her head uncovered. This is obviously not your approach to the Bible; I get the impression you put a lot more thought into it than that.
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02-26-2007, 04:45 AM | #873 | |||
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I think there also are metaphors in Bible passages that are written as literal, and there probably are also double meanings and triple meanings, etc. I believe every part of the the Bible that is written as literal is literal history, but I think metaphors and second meanings also exist in these stories. I think there are many, many layers in scripture and the literal is one true one, but the non-literal often exists there as messages as well. This isn't a contradiction of anything I was saying earlier. I do think the literal interpretation is correct, but I don't limit the Bible to say that that's all that those passages include. I think that a lot about God and the world around us, and the laws that govern it, as well as truths about humanity and our relationships with God are to be found in the literal reading, which is a true reading. And times when someone has trouble stomaching what he or she reads and consequently interprets the scripture as a metaphor instead of in the literal way it is written, to suit that person's own values, is, in my view, a heretical way of approaching scripture. A lot of liberal Christians of my acquaintance do that. Quote:
As I told brownjenkins, there is a difference in the New Testament between cultural and moral changes. Cultural changes are acceptable, so long as they don't involve changing the moral standard. The moral standard in the Bible doesn't change. Quote:
I personally feel that I am responding to the passage you mentioned in a literal way. I do believe that Paul literally wanted women to wear head coverings in church, and seeing as this is the Word of God, I think it was genuinely God's will. It also makes sense, and I agree with Paul wholeheartedly. If uncovered heads for women meant sexual license at that time, then it would have been shockingly disrespectful in the house of God, a place committed to holiness. I sure hope they obeyed Paul's teaching on that! But we also know that this was a cultural difference, and we'd have to be interpreting the Bible non-literally in more than one passage if we were to say that cultural differences were not allowed to change. We can see why it would change, here. On an interesting sidenote, there was not only a cultural principle in that particular passage- there also was a moral principle, and that cannot change. That moral principle was that we should respect God in his sanctuary. We could also take this scripture and say that based on it, women shouldn't wear bikinis into church, men shouldn't wear pants that display their buttocks, and people should all dress and behave in a way that shows respect to God in the sanctuary. That all is based on the moral principle involved in the passage, though the particular cultural manifestation is different now. In view of the passages referring to differences between moral and cultural changes, I think a literal approach to them requires that a literal approach to cultural passages be willing to take the changes into account .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-26-2007 at 04:53 AM. |
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02-26-2007, 07:56 AM | #874 | |
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02-26-2007, 12:08 PM | #875 | |
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Who decides what passages of the bible are cultural and which are moral? Could something like the ever-popular homosexual marriage restriction be seen as purely cultural at some future point in time when it becomes more widely acceptable? I've read the bible, and I don't remember any footnotes that say, "this is an absolute moral, but this is just a cultural thing." Are you saying we are all allowed to create our own? That's an awful lot of free will for followers that don't have free will.
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02-26-2007, 03:27 PM | #876 | ||||||||
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But, the world being 4.5 billion years old makes more sense to me than the world being 6000 years old. So why then do I think that? Well, geological records reveal that the Great Ice Age occured approximately 1 million years ago. IIRC, the Little Ice Age (or one of?) was 10'000 years ago. These two events mean the Earth could not have come into existence only 6000 years ago, as one example. I really don't think this contradicts anything said in the Bible. The Creation story is a metaphor (my favourite word ). Obviously all of humankind did not arise out of only two human beings. Different genetics between people show us that. There are many wonderful and important lessons in the story of Creation, and it tells us things like God made all of creation, and it is very beautiful and wonderful, and God gave us intelligence and a capacity for reason beyond, as far as we know, any other creature. This means we have a great responsibility, but as the lesson of the apple and the Devil tells us, it gives us the capacity to commit sins and disobey what God has asked us. It also shows us The phrase, "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth," does not rule out this being done over a vast period of time. Quote:
Therefore I'm not just "making up my own religion" which implies that I'm not putting any thought into this discussion at all, and implies that I have no evidence for what I'm saying. Both these implications are completely off the mark, and I resent the implication that I'm full of crap, frankly. Quote:
You said yourself that the Bible contains metaphors. Obviously it does. Therefore it's not wrong to read a metaphor in the Bible and obtain a life lesson from it. Quote:
On submission, if God really made people of different inherent value, then God can go jump in a lake. I do not believe in any God that made some people less valuable than others. Happily, I do believe that the Christian God that I worship made all people equal in His eyes. I believe this strongly, and see no evidence in the Bible that demonstrates otherwise. Confusing passages yes (I'm looking at you Leviticus for crying out loud, and Corinthians), but evidence? None. This discussion has really got me thinking. Awesome. I love this discussion. Your comments got me thinking about this question: do I put my own beliefs and knowledge of the world above what is said to me in the Bible? The answer is, no. I do not believe in anything that does not make sense. The Bible, and its message as a whole, does make a lot of sense to me, therefore I believe in it. Since I believe in the entire Bible, I do not reject anything that is written in the Bible. However, some passages in the Bible don't make sense to me. In order to avoid believing something that is incorrect (which would arrive from following something that I don't understand, ie. I would be risking following the passage in the wrong way), I will study the passage until I do understand what it's saying, and then follow it. I'm sure the whole Bible makes complete sense, but it isn't exactly rocket science - it's more complex than that. I don't understand it all now, but that doesn't mean I think it's wrong. What this means is I won't risk doing harm by following something I don't understand, because this would mean doing the wrong thing. You can't follow instructions properly if you don't get them. Does that make sense, about my beliefs? I've given this a lot of thought. Go ahead, ask me anything. Anything at all. Quote:
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02-26-2007, 04:07 PM | #877 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-26-2007 at 04:09 PM. |
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02-26-2007, 05:40 PM | #878 | ||||
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1. We didn't arise out of two one-celled prototype things. 2. The genetic variation among different humans versus the genetic variation between a parent and off-spring is much greater. See also: the visible affects of successive in-breeding, which is what would happen if everyone married their siblings and produced offspring. I was also going to say, Didn't Adam and Eve's children marry people who were not their siblings, but I looked it up, and according to this website, not all of them are named. Quote:
Maybe this website is not the best place to go for answers about Adam and Eve... Anyway, good question.
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02-26-2007, 05:51 PM | #879 | |
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Scientific estimates put the world population at around a total of five million people 10,000 years ago, in order to end up with the amount of people that are living in the world today. Obviously, it's a very rough estimate, but jumping down from five million to two people is so much outside the margin or error as to be laughable. Evolution, by comparison, takes place over billions of years.
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02-26-2007, 05:51 PM | #880 | |
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And Rian, I wasn't proposing that homosexuality should necessarily be allowed under the "cultural differences" idea, just showing that it itself is a fuzzy idea that doesn't exactly bind the text closely.
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