04-03-2006, 08:14 PM | #861 | ||
Elf Lord
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I definitely agree that CAMP and MPF look like very good organizations, and they are needed. I can't find out how large they are. My impression from the lack of news has been that the Muslims have not been protesting much at all against the violence. I knew there were some Muslim groups that definitely objected to the violence and said so, but I haven't been able to find much.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-03-2006 at 08:17 PM. |
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04-04-2006, 12:38 AM | #862 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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There's no need for you to wash your hands; just say, "Oh, that was the Papists and the State Churches".
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04-04-2006, 10:39 AM | #863 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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But back to perspective. I think you have to look at the whole history of a people. This includes religious beliefs, but it also includes cultural issues and national issues. A history of tyranny and oppression has a huge influence on the masses, not matter what religion they may espose. While we can look back now at something like the crusades and point to justifications and reasons for what occured, it does lend perspective to the jihad mindset many hold today. Here is an excerpt from Pope Urban II's speech before the first crusade: Quote:
This is not a justification for violence, but more a way of illustrating that violence is not necessarily tied to any one religious belief system.
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04-04-2006, 11:26 AM | #864 | |||
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Lief, I read the article and I think you may have missed my point. My point was that Hitler did not invent anti-semitism, he just exploited and inflamed it. Jews have been the target of mistrust and/or hatred amongst *some* (perhaps many) Christians for centuries. Here's what Martin Luther said about Jews: Quote:
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I can see many parallels in how Muslims are characterised in the Western media and by Christian commentators with how Jews used to be portrayed. It is as if we are seeing Christian anti-semitism being transferred to Muslims. Any takers on that thesis? [1]Webster R. A Brief History of Blasphemy. 1990, p35 [2]Armstrong K. Holy War: The crusades and their impact on today's world. 1988. Last edited by The Gaffer : 04-04-2006 at 11:28 AM. |
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04-04-2006, 11:37 AM | #865 | |||
Elf Lord
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But I probably would be willing to fight also in the Crusades if I felt that it was resisting an evil invading tide . I'm willing to fight al'Qaeda today- the Christians seem to have viewed the Muslims of their time little differently. I think very little of what Pope Urban accused the Muslims of is true. At least I don't know of any evidence that the horrors he accused them of actually happened. There might be evidence that I don't know about, but I just don't think it was like that. However, Christians at that time would have had a massive predisposition to believe what the Pope was saying, as he was believed to be essentially the mouth of God and the person who could correctly interpret all doctrine. He was the leader of the Church. So to hear such claims of Muslim barbarity from his mouth would quickly inspire a willingness to fight such evil. I might have gone on the Crusades as well . One shouldn't believe everything one hears, but the Pope would have been viewed as a very, very reliable source of information, both about doctrine and about Muslim atrocities. It's all very sad. If I believed what Urban said was true of Muslim atrocities, I would probably have gone on the Crusades too. But none of this invalidates any of what I was saying earlier. The Christians have launched invasions against specific perceived evils with the intent of destroying that evil. They have never launched an invasion to conquer the world, like the Muslims have. Furthermore, the Crusades were not anywhere near the scale of the early Muslim invasions. They just can't be compared to the invasions Mohammed's earliest successors launched on the rest of the world. The Muslims nearly succeeded in their objective at that time- they nearly conquered the world. Quote:
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This is true with Christians too. Much of the way a significant number of us influence culture is by acting according to our religious beliefs. Those religious beliefs determine our behavior and our cultural and national impact to a large extent. This is certainly true with me. My religious beliefs totally define my outlook on reality, and everything I see and hear comes through the lens of my views. The same is true of you too, I'll wager. If you have views about reality, you'll see reality through the lens of your beliefs, whether those views are religious or not. If you see there as being no God, you'll see all events in the world as natural events that don't come from God, and perhaps your lens being flawed, you are blinded. The same is true of me. If I see all the events in the world as events that come from God's hand, perhaps my lens is flawed and I am blinded. But we do view the world through the lens of our beliefs, for better or worse. I agree that the history and somewhat aspects of culture that come about without the influence of religion also are key factors. One does need to look at the whole history rather than just the religion, but the religion is key to how people interact with their culture and with the issues of the day that present themselves. If they are nonreligious people, then their nonreligious outlook is key to how they interact with their culture and the issues of the day. But I certainly agree that we have to take into account all the factors.
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04-04-2006, 11:52 AM | #866 | |||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-04-2006, 12:24 PM | #867 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You know, an interesting question to ask in this thread might be this:
If you were given a choice, would you choose to live in an Islamic country? If not, why not? If so, why?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-04-2006, 12:29 PM | #868 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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All I'm asking is for you to try to put your feet in the other's shoes. From a muslim point of view today, many believe that christians have nearly conquered the world. If not physically, largely in an economic perspective. Their economies are dependent on christian nations (much more so than ours is upon oil). They have had troops from mostly christian nations in and out of their countries for generations. Their dictators are propped up by these very same nations. And they have been labelled as "evil" by the leaders of the most powerful nation in the world. As I quoted from buddha earlier, "watch the thought and its ways with care". And if you are right, and the muslim faith is generally a more violent one than others, what would you propose as the best way to remedy that situation? It's destruction?
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04-04-2006, 01:39 PM | #869 |
Quasi Evil
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Well alienating them with unfair and biased politics isnt a solution. Nor is calling them "small and petty" as a group.
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04-04-2006, 03:26 PM | #870 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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The quote is: T.E. Lawrence: So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people - greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as you are. ========================================= General Murray: I can't make out whether you're a bloody madman or just half-witted. T.E. Lawrence: I have the same problem, sir.
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04-04-2006, 03:57 PM | #871 | |
Elf Lord
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Well, spock, that's just racist, pure and simple.
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04-04-2006, 04:05 PM | #872 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-04-2006 at 04:10 PM. |
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04-04-2006, 04:17 PM | #873 |
Quasi Evil
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I think its slightly pointless because we are all westerners here (those that post) and you are always going to be biased toward your home (since its all you know). Choosing to not want to leave america says nothing about Islam as a religion.
A much better question would be do the people of Afghanistan want to leave Afghanistan? I think you would find that despite the frightful conditions in Afghanistan (and Iraq for that matter) the vast majority would not rather be living in a America or nation because Afghanistan/Iraq is home. And home is where the heart is no matter how you see their religion.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
04-04-2006, 04:58 PM | #874 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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What IR said. You always have a bias towards your own way of life. What is difficult, and what I constantly try to point out on these kind of threads, is trying to see the other side's point of view.
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04-04-2006, 05:40 PM | #875 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Good point, IRex - I only have a minute so I'll just add something into the mix instead of commenting (which hopefully I'll get to later) - here's another angle - how many people want to emigrate into the U.S., for example, vs. Afghanistan?
I want to make very clear that I do NOT think any one group of people is better than any other group of people. However, I DO think that systems of government and what they are generally based on are important things to evaluate.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-04-2006, 07:44 PM | #876 | ||||||
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It's harder for me to put myself in the liberals' socks though, actually, as in many ways I'm a fundamentalist myself and fundamentalism makes much more sense to me than liberalism does. I can understand the Muslim outlook that says we're invaders and intensely immoral, though. It's unfortunate that there is certainly some truth in that perspective. Quote:
I also have already raised some points to Gaffer about the European economic "conquest" of Muslim territories that respond to that issue. I disagree about this one, but I know that's not important. What you're thinking is from a Muslim perspective, and from a Muslim perspective I can see you blaming Christians in this way. I'm not trying to argue against seeing from a Muslim perspective. Trying to see from that perspective is very important and a good activity to practice. Quote:
1# First, work at putting an end to Islam altogether by bringing them to Christ through a loving Christian witness and through prayer. Purify our church and witness, and use evangelization to reach out to those countries. That I see as the only final solution, since I don't believe that in the final analysis we can change Islam's true and bloody nature through normal methods. Several Christian groups are working at bringing Muslims to Christ and supporting Christian minorities that already live in Muslim lands. I won't underestimate the Holy Spirit's ability to accomplish incredible feats through his church. The real nature of Islam is a violent nature, and it must be destroyed. The only lasting way to do that is to destroy the whole religion, in my view, though again, NOT VIOLENTLY. Violence cannot be the final answer, here. Love and showing God's goodness through our actions, as well as praying in the Spirit is the answer. 2# Second, initiate fair and helpful policies toward Muslim countries so that they can see we are not against them. This would include some changes in our policy toward Israel, for we are too accepting of everything Israel does, ignoring a history of oppression on Israel's part that has made the politics what they currently are. The Palestinians have not forgotten, and neither has the rest of the Middle East. We cannot keep supporting every action and policy that Israel engages in. Like Insidious Rex says, not "alienating them with unfair and biased politics," or calling them "small and petty" is important. I'm also extremely annoyed at the Republican and Democratic Parties' bipartisan rejection of Muslim ownership of the Dubai Ports, also . That just really, really bothers me. It is a strong example of injustice toward Muslims in our government, and will NOT help our national image. Supporting the Muslim ownership of those ports at that time would have been very helpful in a tense time, however. It's a tragic missed opportunity, and I'm just furious at the Republican and Democratic parties for making such a mistake. Winning the war in Iraq is also a critically important part of national policy, for winning this war may have the result of spreading freedom in the Middle East far beyond Iraq's borders. I agree with you Brownjenkins that ceasing support for dictatorships and urging the spread of democracies in the Middle East with greater fervor and determination is important, and I think this is true even if it causes groups like Hamas to gain power. I believe this policy will hurt us, but it is ethically important nonetheless. There are other policy issues. These are just some of those that spring to mind immediately. Keeping a fair and helpful policy toward the Muslims is critically important. 3# Third, show friendship and love to Muslims on a personal level, through our families and theirs interacting. I'm developing a friendship with one Muslim right now at college, and I think doing this is absolutely essential for us as a nation. I hate the view that all Muslims are evil. Creating and strengthening friendships in this time of tensions is vital, and that can't be stressed strongly enough. 4# Fourth, as a nation encourage and support the strong liberal faction of the Muslim faith, for they are the most peaceful element right now in their religion. I wouldn't outright condemn all fundamentalists either, personally. I disagree with their views and I think Satan is using them as a terrible weapon against the civilized communities of the world, but I can understand where they're coming from too, and if I were a Muslim, I'd be one of them. This is because I think they're accurately representing the religion Mohammed preached, and if I was a Muslim, that would be a key concern of mine. Strengthening relations with all Muslims on a government level and encouraging the currently strong liberal element in the Muslim faith is essential. The liberal element is the most peaceful, so supporting it the most strongly is important. And I don't think our government does condemn all Muslims, not even close . I'm very glad about that . There probably are more pieces to an effective solution that I've missed, but these are the ones I can think of now which I think we should focus on. Though obviously #1 primarily applies to Christians. I think we are working to this strategy already, to a large extent.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-04-2006 at 07:53 PM. |
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04-04-2006, 09:41 PM | #877 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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On the other hand, your remarks are ethnocentric and bigoted. Have respect for other view points and don't be too quick to label.
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04-04-2006, 10:14 PM | #878 | |||||
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How can you say that Spock, and then accuse the Gaffer of saying something ethnocentric and bigoted!? Quote:
How in the heck is pointing out that Lawrence's racist "a silly people - greedy, barbarous, and cruel" comment about Arabs an ethnocentric or bigoted statement!? One might say it's intolerant - intolerant towards racism. It's not you personally but that statement that I am criticising in this post. edited: I forgot to answer R*an's question. If Canada ceased to exist and I had to move, I would most likely move to England because I have family there. Or maybe Sweden because I have lived there for a year before, and I speak a little Swedish and know people there. Or maybe Finland because I have a very dear friend who lives there and most people speak English. (I'd learn to speak Finnish though.) But. If I didn't know anyone anywhere, and ignoring the language barrier, I would certainly not be opposed to moving to Malaysia, a predominantly Muslim country. It seems like a very lovely place. Also the Philippines strikes me as a great place to live. (I almost went there on my exchange but chose Sweden somewhat randomly in the end.) I don't know how many Pilippinos are Muslim though. A lot? A few? Iraq would be fine if they weren't at war, and did not have someone awful like Saddam Hussein in charge. Neither, I'd like to point out, are the fault of Islam. Saddam Hussein had a brutal secular regime. edited again: I'm not saying that Saddam is in charge now obviously, I mean I wouldn't want to live there during his regime either. Of course the "War on Terror" is also not the fault of Islam. It is not any religion's fault if some hateful people use it as an excuse to attack others. Islam is no more responsible for Muslim extremists than Christianity is responsible for the KKK or the IRA.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 04-04-2006 at 10:25 PM. |
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04-04-2006, 10:26 PM | #879 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Rian had it down. Its a quote from history. It's in books and on film. Lawrence was no racist. Arabs didn't even call themselves Arabs back then; they were hasamites, bedou, etc. but not Arabs. Lawrence helped create that identity. They have and continue to fight amongst themselves and so wil always retain the attributes attributed to them (and observations made by Lawrence) until they can act and live as one people.
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04-04-2006, 10:31 PM | #880 |
Elf Lord
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Let's all try to avoid putting labels on one another. "Racist" or "ethnocentric and bigoted" are all labels, and very unpleasant ones too. The Lawrence comment is only racist if one views it as saying Arabs by nature are horrible, but Lawrence said that Arabs will be horrible if they keep fighting one another. I don't know enough about those conflicts to say, but it's apparent that whatever racism there was in his comment was conditional. And it's true that the Arabs didn't become greater until they overcame their internal tribal conflicts. But Gaffer is not ethnocentric and bigoted either. Let's just try to keep all such labels out of this and put the best interpretation possible on what one another are saying, for in my view it's much more likely that we're misunderstanding than it is that the other person is being nasty. Because none of us are nasty.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-04-2006 at 10:33 PM. |
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