03-17-2004, 11:06 AM | #861 | |||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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btw, i am not saying "you're wrong"... i am saying that one must always consider the possibility that their beliefs are wrong Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-17-2004, 11:08 AM | #862 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-17-2004, 02:16 PM | #863 | ||
Elven Warrior
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I don't, however, believe in the christian version of the afterlife...from the experiences that I've had, that many of my friends have had *religious and non religious alike* and my mother has had *she worked 2 years as a coroner and 4 years as a hospice support organizer* I feel that there is definately a different swing on the afterlife that cannot be definatively proven correct or incorrect. Quote:
Like I said, i'm not trying to label all of christianity with that little blurb, but i am saying that the majority of christians that i've met *again, not all by any means* have followed their faith blindly by those means... Furthermore....I am a huge supporter of the belief that our fates lie indeed in our own hands...ultimately you have the choice to do what you do, nothing or noone can MAKE you do something....the movie "Minority Report" puts an excellent perspective on this belief. *I had the belief before i saw the movie, however it simply illustrated it better than i can explain it* As well.....one final little thing...the leader of a coven, or group of witches is known as a high priest/priestess.
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If you must judge others.....do not judge others by the height they have climbed; rather, judge them by the depths they have risen from. Think before you act, but act before it's too late. He is a man of sense who does not grieve for what he has not, but rejoices in what he has. You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a victor without having victims. The Utopian Oldschool Champ. http://games.swirve.com/utopia www.Orderofavalon.com |
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03-17-2004, 02:48 PM | #864 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Wow, so many posts I can't keep up. Someone said something about shamans way back that I felt needed clarification, but I can't even find the post!
BTW Drgnslyer, it's because of what you said about the Bible that I plan to read it at the frist opportunity. (This summer.) I have only read about ten verses, but I don't claim to preach out of it anyway. I can't, I don't know squat!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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03-17-2004, 04:37 PM | #865 | |||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-17-2004, 05:43 PM | #866 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I consider the following to be rather unique claims made by or about Jesus: 1. That He was divine... to the extent of being the Son of God in a sense that made Him also One with God... not something He 'achieved' while on earth, but that this was His very nature. 2. That He had authority to forgive sins and restore right relationship with God... not through the penitent actions of those seeking forgiveness, but again by His very nature, that part we Christians call 'grace', He had this authority. 3. That He was physically resurrected from the dead... showing that by His very nature and His sinless life, He had power over the physical death of this world as He had over the spiritual death of sin. The third was certainly claimed by His earliest followers, the first two both by His followers and Himself, from their accounts - which, as others have stated, they went to their deaths rather than deny. You can believe or not believe these claims - but He makes them and no other does... at least no other who has as much credibility. My point about other religions is that they seem to feel a need to explain Him. I don't necessarily share the view you portray Christians as having in your last sentence. It may contain truth, but I leave those others in God's hands... I imagine they were all seeking... I believe Jesus to have been what they were really looking for. Now, I don't expect you to necessarily accept all this right off just because I say I believe it - and you certainly seem familiar enough with Christian teachings that none of what I've just said would surprise you. In my own case, before I believed, I can see no reason why I would have believed. It's been a long time, and I was much younger, but I almost wonder if my 'heart' had to accept the claims of Jesus before my 'mind' could... Maybe that's not saying it best. But when I 'gave in' to the tuggings of my heart, it was not like I was changing my mind... it's more like I was changed... if that makes any sense at all. I hope I've helped.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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03-17-2004, 05:55 PM | #867 |
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Part of my beliefs include this:
Do we have to question so much of the unknown and incomprehensible? Some things will never be learned until we (I hope eventually this means we, as in everyone here) get to heaven. My point is merely that not everything can be humanly explained, so we shouldn't try to humanly explain it. We shouldn't worry about things such as predestination (a random example). I love this quote: One can always worry about the hidden God--what he might do in his great majesty. But to such questions as "Where was God before the creation of the world?", Augustine's answer is appropriate: "God was making hell for those who are inquisitive." This was kind of off topic, I'm still perusing the other long and thoughtful posts.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
03-17-2004, 05:58 PM | #868 | |
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We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a gift from God . This means not by our own doing.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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03-17-2004, 06:10 PM | #869 | |
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 03-17-2004 at 06:27 PM. |
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03-17-2004, 06:20 PM | #870 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-17-2004, 06:28 PM | #871 |
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I understand your point, but just because something is "circular" does that automatically discredit it?
Here is my argument for its credibility: 1. Test of Canonicity (canon = ruler, or standard) A. Is it authoritative? (Does it have the sense of 'Thus says the Lord') B. Is it prophetic? Was it written by a man of God? C. Is it authentic? D. Does it carry a life-changing message? E. Was it received, accepted, and read by the early church? THOSE ANSWERS ARE YES! 2. Reliability of the Bible. *No ancient writing has ever come down to us in its original document* none Examples: Julius Caesar: wrote in 100-44 BC, earliest copy is from 900 AD (difference of 1000 yrs)and there were only 10 copies Plato: wrote in 427-347 BC, earliest copy is from 900 AD (difference of 1300 yrs) and there were only 7 copies Aristotle: wrote from 384-322 BC, earliest copy is from 1100 AD (difference of 1400 yrs), only 5 copies the NEW TESTAMENT: wrote from 40-90 AD, earllist copy from 250-300 AD (difference of 200 yrs), number of copies? 5,000! 3. Handling There were special rules the copiers had to follow: a. synagogue roll had to use the skin of a clean animal b. the ink had to e black, no other color, and only made with a special recipe. c. between every consonant there had to be the space of a thread (exactly) d. between each section...the space of 9 consonants (exactly) 4. Prophesy Basic Bibilical truths: 1. Numbers 23:19 2. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 God cannot lie, and all prophecies must come true. In the old testament there are over 2000 prohecies, and they ALL come true. Compare to other major religions and their documents: Buddha = 0 prophecies Confucious = 0 prophecies Koran = 1 prophecy (that Muhammad would return to Mecca, I think, how convient that the writer wrote that he would do something...) If you want specific prophecies and their fullfillments, I can give you some.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
03-17-2004, 08:42 PM | #872 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Next to the New Testament, the greatest amount of manuscript evidence for an ancient document is Homer's Iliad. That has 650 Greek copies today, many extremely fragmentary, dating from between the second and third centuries AD, and following. Homer's Iliad was initially written at about 800 BC. Look at the comparison, Insidious Rex, between the New Testament manuscript evidence and time placements, next to what is established the next most strongly. Quote:
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However, you don't have to go any further in the Old Testament prophesies than the prophesies pertaining to Jesus to obliterate arguments against the divine inspiration of Biblical prophesy. |
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03-17-2004, 08:51 PM | #873 | ||||
Elf Lord
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03-17-2004, 09:12 PM | #874 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Huge crowds had experienced his healing the sick, and the people that wrote the gospels were witnesses. We have writings from other apostles and disciples that experienced his miraculous power as well. His having huge numbers of followers is attested to in sources outside of Christianity, and we actually have evidence concerning his miracles from the mouths of his enemies. We have documents from the religious leaders, saying that he was a practicer of black magic. This tends to support very strongly his being a miracle worker. If those people could in any way have denied his miracles, they would have had every reason to do so. Quote:
However, in response to the argument that he was incredibly gifted, a wonderful person, and crazy, I gave a psychiatric argument against it. As yet, I have seen no evidence from you on the subject. Only belief. Quote:
I've got to go, now. Afraid I can't get any more into this at this time. |
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03-17-2004, 09:27 PM | #875 |
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Just an interesting tidbit:
John Rutter, a Christian English composer, attended a college with a high percentage of atheists as faculty. He said that he (Rutter) was often almost convinced of their atheist arguments. However, when he attended church and heard the music he could never understand how this (music) could have come from falsities and that that in itself knocked down there strongest arguments.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
03-17-2004, 09:58 PM | #876 |
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Just to make it clear, I am not of the opinion that all religions except for Christianity are totally wrong. Rather, they are merely "incomplete" in the sense that some things are correct and even parallel with Christianity, while other things major (and minor) are wrongly interpreted/or just (imo) wrong, and even more important things are left out or not considered.
For example: Islam gets right that there is one god, however their beliefs about the nature of that one god are pretty different. I'm also sure that some of the Buddhist moral teachings are completely correct and parallel to Christianity. To add to my argument for the "rightness" of Christianity: -I think it addresses the issue of original sin and evil in the world correctly. For some atheists who think that if there was a god, why would he make sin, I ask this: If God's purpose is for his people to love him and draw closer to him, why would he make them merely like "machines" and already perfect? Then what would God's purpose be? I wonder why I said that? Also, arguments about why God didn't make the world perfect: On the issue of pain and suffering, it 1. contributes to spiritual growth and fellowship with Christ, 2. Is a form of witness, 3. brings out grace and compassion in other people. Suffering "produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it" (Heb. 12:11). I guess I just defended an argument that someone might make rather than something someone made recently. Oh well. -There are miracles present now, not only in Biblical times. For example, one time my dad was asked at a church supper to pray for someone with cancer who was undergoing surgery the next day. Well, the next day, they opened them up for surgery and the cancer was completely gone. Is that not a miracle? -Christianity is my ancestry. I know, some of you won't like to here that, but I don't just say "Hey, I've decided the hundreds of people directly before me in my family are completely wrong and stupid." I will post more as I learn and think and ponder and read other posts (and ask my dad about it!).
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
03-17-2004, 11:00 PM | #877 | |||
Elf Lord
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Starting with GrayMouser's. Wouldn't someone know if they were omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent? It's pretty clear from the description of Jesus' life that he was humble, yet you have to imagine him full of incredible arrogance, to make the claim that he has never sinned. Other inconsistencies than these two I expect would appear, if you say he thought he was God, but he was neither raving nor evil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's certainly possible to live a life that is outwardly humble, while having total confidence in your own moral rectitude. Quote:
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Same point about the Muslims- it's not whether or not they are correct in their beliefs - just whether or not the Christian claim presents some kind of challenge that they can't handle comfortably from within their own framework. Quote:
And again, through history, many people have been martyred rather than give up their supernatural claims, and millions of followers have died in the same cause.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 03-17-2004 at 11:03 PM. |
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03-17-2004, 11:24 PM | #878 |
Elf Lord
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I'm taking a walk on a nice winter's day, and I come across an apple tree.
"Boy, I'd sure like a nice ripe apple- but wait, it's the middle of winter and there are no apples on the tree." So I take up my chainsaw and, in a fit of anger, chop the the offending tree down. How would you characterise my actions?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
03-18-2004, 02:54 AM | #879 | |||||
Elf Lord
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I don't think it would be easy at all for any human to behave humbly, while at the same time believing incorrectly that they are morally perfect. If you look at history, everyone who's believed they are perfect (mainly kings) end up losing touch with reality, frequently being ruthless, always supremely arrogant and self indulgent. Quote:
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Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-18-2004 at 02:57 AM. |
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03-18-2004, 03:17 AM | #880 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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