Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Lotesse]

Oh, Inked.

Please see the beauty on the people you share this world with, please try to think about being kind. Why would your God create people as gay if this was not part of his mysterious, complete Plan? Why would you, or anyone, want to perpetuate spiritual misery and self-loathing, and pain, and the withering and beating of human spirit, human life? If you believe in a God, well - God made Gays, too, just as he made all the other different types of human beings, and who are you to question his reasons, if God it is in whom you believe? Who are you to question God's creation?

Do you ever read other peope's links in these threads, Inked? Hope so, 'cause here's one for yu to read, if not, then shame upon you for expecting eeryone else to read your links, yet not reciprocating. I dare you to read other people's links, even to comment upon what you've read, as you always expect others here to comment upon YOUR links in YOUR posts.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4865686

[Lief Erikson]

GrayMouser, here's the article I was referencing.

*Tries my link.* Shucks. You'd have to have my college ID . . . I could copy and paste the entire article, or just key parts of it, if you like. As I said earlier, though, it's very long. 18 pages. A very, very worthwhile 18 pages.

Here's the publication information:

Professional Psychology: Research and Practice
June 2002, Vol. 33, No. 3, p 242-248

Grove City College

Address for Correspondence: Warren Throckmorton, College Counseling, 100 Campus Drive, Grove City College, Grove City, Pennsylvania 16127 Email: ewthrockmorton@gcc.edu

Received: September 18, 2000. Revised: January 8, 2002. Accepted: January 11, 2002.

Warren Throckmorton was the article's author.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Warren Throckmorton. I have a lot of links that work for him.

Here's one. http://www.truthwinsout.org/news/two...80%99-victims/

[Lief Erikson]

One of the only references to his credentials that your article provides is the unsupported allegation that he is "unlicensed." Which is actually a lie.

And it says:

Although an outspoken proponent of ex-therapy, Throckmorton is relatively unaccomplished. He has not written a book, nor has he conducted any major studies. He does claim to have counseled 250 patients, but he is unable to bring any success cases forward.

So that's some of what he hasn't done.

Some of the credentials this paper's writer seems incapable of finding include . . .

Originally Posted by drthrockmorton.com

Warren Throckmorton, PhD is an Associate Professor of Psychology and Fellow for Psychology and Public Policy at Grove City (PA) College. His academic work has been published by journals of the American Psychological Association, the American Mental Health Counseling Association and the Christian Association for Psychological Studies. Dr. Throckmorton is past-president of the American Mental Health Counselors Association and is past-chair of the Ethics Committee. For six years, he served on the National Provider Advisory Board of Magellan Behavioral Healthcare, the largest behavioral healthcare company in the world . . . His columns have been published by over 100 newspapers nationwide.

The article you linked mainly states what some of his positions are and then says they're offensive, failing to present any statement about what his evidence is and failing to provide any evidence to show why it is wrong.


EDIT: By the way, I'm being incredibly restrained in this gentle criticism of that paper. The above post of mine views the content of that paper in a most generous, mild, gracious, kindly and merciful light. The words about it that I'm not typing are difficult to restrain.

[Tessar]

Well thanks for being most generous, mild, gracious, kindly and merciful, Lief .

But seriously, I do have to agree with him Siscuz. The article you provided isn't very well written in providing information to defame the other author.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Well as far as the republican party is concerned they are all deviant democrats anyway. (Theres no gays in the republican party*laughter*...)

I've never heard a republican claiming that...it's just absurd.

But, no homosexuals in Iran??? What the hell is he thinking? As I recall, Iran had a homosexual tradition that was similar to (though slightly more underground than) that of ancient Greece, didn't it? Has that completely died out?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I've never heard a republican claiming that...it's just absurd.

Well considering they ban them from marriage to the tune of 90%+, support discrimination measures against them and consider living a "homosexual lifestle" immoral and disgusting, Id struggle to understand why they would ever want or expect any gays to join them in their political cause wouldnt you? Gays still sit outside the "big tent" of the current republican party. Now lets see what happens when Guilianni gets elected...

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

reply

[Tessar]

wtf?

I thought we put a 48 hour ban on Siscuz for this thread! >.<

Oh, heads will roll.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

reply

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Well, if you've seen his license, you're one up on me. A PhD is not a license to practice medicine, which is what the article refers to, I believe.

You guys may not realize it, but ordinary people are not impressed when a podunk religious college that can't even conform to federal law as regards women hires a batty associate professor. And we know that such hiring doesn't make him a scientific expert. That's because SOME people still understand the difference between "Science" and "Religion."

I know that a lot of people would be really happy if Professor Throckmorton found a magic switch that would control sexual identity. But I don't see any reason to suppose he has, althopugh he's trying.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

As a counselor, his resume is pretty sparce. According to the bio he has on Grove City's website, he was a graduate student in 1992. He won an award that year for "outstanding graduate student." http://www2.gcc.edu/dept/psyc/WarrenThrockmorton.htm
His membership is in a professional society. Anyone in the field, including students, can join. It's good practice for people to do so, but you need to understand, it's a lobbying group. Here's their website, they know this. http://www.amhca.org/ In 1996 he became president of that group, but that STILL doesn't speak to his qualifications as a therapist. He didn't run for therapist, do you see? And he's not listed in the search on their "Find a counselor" search engine.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Since he's "Director" of the counseling service, he may do some counseling there. But maybe he's an administrator.

As I said, I understand that what he wants is a popular idea. So is perpetual motion.
They're equally likely, at this point.

And when someone is selling a flim-flam, I keep my hand on my wallet.

[Tessar]

True, but can you refute Lief's claim that this guy has had his articles published in a number of scientific magazines? Non-religiously based ones, I might add.

I honestly don't know for certain, but doesn't the fact that he's been published a number of times lend his theories a certain amount of weight?



I'm sorry, but I'd need to see a considerable amount more evidence before I just tossed this guy off as a quack . I don't know that I believe him... In fact I'm pretty sure I don't. But I wouldn't defame his name entirely.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Tessar

True, but can you refute Lief's claim that this guy has had his articles published in a number of scientific magazines? Non-religiously based ones, I might add.

I honestly don't know for certain, but doesn't the fact that he's been published a number of times lend his theories a certain amount of weight?



I'm sorry, but I'd need to see a considerable amount more evidence before I just tossed this guy off as a quack . I don't know that I believe him... In fact I'm pretty sure I don't. But I wouldn't defame his name entirely.

It depends on what you see as his theories. He doesn't, for example, support "reparative therapy" for everyone who presents as gay. Among right-wing activists, this is a remarkably moderate stance.

As far as scientific journals, I find a journal article for the APA in 2002, which is a literature review. There are a lot of issues around the work he discusses (like, a confusion between gender-identity issues and homosexuality, and a question about whether making people not act on their sexual orientation is the same as changing it) that run contrary to accepted practice by APA standards. But the literature exists, and is publishable.

I could consider that eating meat was a psychological disorder. I could put together reasons why it was negative. Eventually, I could build a wave of distaste for the practice, such that people were ashamed of the impulse to eat meat. I could criminalize it, in some places. And people would seek the help of therapists to rid themselves of their cravings.

Then I could report that many people, although they still liked hamburgers, adhered to a vegetarian diet.

I'm not sure that that's a great thing to do.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

NURV, the poster was made by the regional government advocating a pseudoscientific rationale for opinion. Does it really matter that the poster was on a blog instead of a newspaper when the local government is putting it up in public venues?

Sheesh!

It's not the end of the world or anything. :P Just remember that accredited journalism is a friend to all.

Originally Posted by Tessar

I honestly don't know for certain, but doesn't the fact that he's been published a number of times lend his theories a certain amount of weight?

It does if they were peer reviewed. Otherwise it just means that he is a good writer and/or his articles are popular - neither of which would lend any weight to his theories.

(Did anyone else read "Throckmorton" as "Frogmorton"?)

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Tessar

True, but can you refute Lief's claim that this guy has had his articles published in a number of scientific magazines?

The article Lief cited was a retrospective case series based on self-reported subjective experiences of "ex-gays".

Which, in terms of answering the question "can gayness be cured?", is about the worst quality of research design, with the highest chance of bias, you could possibly have. Perhaps a single case report would be worse. That's about it.

This habit of citing the "science" which supports one's opinion is an increasingly worrying one. You see it all the time in the media. Which might also explain why he's had all the newspaper columns. There is more money to be made being a rightwing media whore than a leftwing one.

[inked]

I don't know about that Gaffer. The left wing one got a Nobel Peace Prize for a crackpot idea, and not the Internet one. I suspect he gets plenty for his opinionating.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

The article Lief cited was a retrospective case series based on self-reported subjective experiences of "ex-gays".

Which, in terms of answering the question "can gayness be cured?", is about the worst quality of research design, with the highest chance of bias, you could possibly have. Perhaps a single case report would be worse. That's about it.

While I find the last two sentences of what you say here to be entirely ridiculous, your main point is pretty sound. Throckmorton takes note of this in his article.

Originally Posted by APA article by Throckmorton

This review does not answer the controversial question, Do ex-gay ministries help people change sexual orientation? There are at least two reasons for this. First, sexual orientation is a concept that is difficult to define and measure (Gonsoriek, Sell, & Weinrich, 1995). Being gay, lesbian, bisexual, or straight means different things to different people. Some lay people (and researchers) define sexual orientation by behaviors, others consider impulses and fantasies, and others consider some combination of these. Self-report is the most common means of assessing sexual orientation, with all of the limitations known for this assessment method. Moreover, there is no consensus of a direct, physical means of assessing sexual orientation. Gonsoriek et al. did not abandon the concept of sexual orientation, but they concluded that “given such significant measurement problems, one could conclude there is serious doubt whether sexual orientation is a valid concept at all” (p. 46).

A second and related problem is the controversy between those holding essentialist and social constructionist views of sexual orientation (DeLamater & Hyde, 1998). Essentialist theorists view sexual orientation as an immutable, inherent trait, whereas social constructionists see sexual orientation as arising from self-reflection in the context of culture. Essentialists often separate sexual orientation from sexual identity and assume the actuality of distinct categories of sexuality (e.g., gay, bisexual, straight), whereas sexual identity is one's more conscious self-identification. As such, essentialists are not likely to trust self-reported change as sufficient to establish proof of sexual orientation change (Gonsoriek et al., 1995). Many constructionists, however, see the lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) identities emerging recently in history (Richardson, 1993). Constructionists place great value on the narratives of those who claim change in the experience of sexual orientation.

Nothing has been hammered out as biologically causing homosexuality or heterosexuality. Self-report is a weak means for finding out someone's sexuality, as you point out, but it is the only method presently available to analyze ex-gays, because there is no consensus about physical techniques. Because self-report is a weak means, this article does not claim to prove whether or not ex-gays can change. The title of the article is "Initial Empirical and Clinical Findings Concerning the Change Process for Ex-Gays". However, the article does show what direction the results of the presently available professional studies on ex-gays are leaning. According to Throckmorton, "some kind of change appears to occur for many who identify themselves as ex-gay." The evidence of these tests (some of which went into the experiences of hundreds of subjects) is sufficient to reach that conclusion. Throckmorton also says that, "although the reports in this article do not provide proof that sexual orientation changes through religious mediation, they do invite mental health professionals and the public to be cautious in assuming that we fully understand the potential and limitations for human change." He also argues that when practitioners encounter clients that want to change from homosexual to heterosexual, they should be willing to consider referral to an ex-gay ministry.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

This habit of citing the "science" which supports one's opinion is an increasingly worrying one.

He presents in his article the results of all eleven of the only available studies on ex-gays available in professional literature. He mentions that there are some studies being conducted on ex-ex-gays that he has not discussed in his article. His focus is primarily on how many people feel they have changed and is not on what people who don't change go through.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

You see it all the time in the media. Which might also explain why he's had all the newspaper columns. There is more money to be made being a rightwing media whore than a leftwing one.

You might as well not cite the American Psychological Association at all in this thread, if you think they'd consent to have a "right-wing media whore" publish his report in their journal Professional Psychology: Research and Practice. If they've sunk to the level of presenting the so-called "findings" of someone like that in their professional journal, then their view on homosexuality is absolutely irrelevant to any discussion of the topic.

Also, in your ad hominem attack on the man, you're ignoring virtually all of his credentials and are making slurs on his character based on pure supposition about one part of his credentials.

[brownjenkins]

I wonder if homophobia can be cured?