Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Silme*Christian]

When you said you thought that going to service was boring, is that because you may not UNDERSTAND what people are trying to say to you? As for many other things you wrote, Go ahead and believe what you want, no one is stoping you! Stop in your tracks and look behing, there is no one chasing you, so why do you feel the need to run away from something that is NOT THERE?
And another thing, in your post it sounded 'strange' that you could believe that we are all bateries created by machines.
I did not like you post one bit, keep your dirty thoughts to yourself and do NOT try to change someones religion like you just did! That is unjust! Let everyone believe what they want! You have no right to change them, and you most CERTAINLY don't have the power! I don't know about the rest of you, but I am invincable to people like you who think they can make someones life beter, not relizing that they just made things worse. So if you have something to say about your religion, FINE! But don't try something like that again!

[HOBBIT]

Silme*Christian, how is the matrix not more plausible than god? Maybe the idea of god was programmed into us by the machines But, btw I was only half serious when I said I'd rather believe in the matrix.

Now to pick on some quotes:

When you said you thought that going to service was boring, is that because you may not UNDERSTAND what people are trying to say to you?

Good one, assume that I am ignorant and the reason that I don't like it is because I don't understand it. No, sorry. I perfectly understood what was going on - I just didn't like it. You are partly right though - I don't understand hebrew (although there are translations on the book we use and it is discussed, etc so I still understood everything). In Hebrew school that taught us how to read hewbrew - i still can. Just they did not really teach us what we were reading, which I think is a little silly. But whatever. Maybe one day I will actually learn the hebrew langauge, but that would not turn me back to religion.

Go ahead and believe what you want, no one is stoping you! Stop in your tracks and look behing, there is no one chasing you, so why do you feel the need to run away from something that is NOT THERE?

Yes, I WILL continue to believe what I want. As for the chasing thing, wth are you talking about :P

I did not like you post one bit, keep your dirty thoughts to yourself and do NOT try to change someones religion like you just did! That is unjust! Let everyone believe what they want! You have no right to change them, and you most CERTAINLY don't have the power! I don't know about the rest of you, but I am invincable to people like you who think they can make someones life beter, not relizing that they just made things worse. So if you have something to say about your religion, FINE! But don't try something like that again!

Is someone just a little unsecure here? I was just stating WHAT I BELIEVE and was in no way trying to change anyone's belief system - as if that would be possible to do over a message board. I agree with you 100 % though, people have no right to try to change someone's beliefs forcibly. Not all of course, but many christians DO try to do just that - and they certainly did it to Native Americans, Africans, etc. And a main goal of Islam is to convert others to their faith and in the past conqeuring many lands and forcing the peopel to believe as they did. I only don't mention judiasm, because to my knowledge, jews do not believe in converting others, hence why there are so few jewish converts. It is kind of funny that you say things to me that apply to some people of your own faith. I only want people to make decisions for themselves. Please, believe whatever you want.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Long but worthwhile post (come on , spend 5-10 minutes reading it for christ's sake )

'christ's sake'? funny.... you being a former jew and current atheist. lol

Organized religion was created basically to explain the world and control people, and to stop fear of death. It has no place in society today.

agreed. However, I think some people get joy and purpose from their religion and need it in thier lives. Let's not take that away from them, just like we would not want them to deny us our freedom to not worship their god.

I do still go to cedars and celebrate passover and hanukah, but just to celebrate my ancestry and pay respect to them I guess.

ha, funny... I'm a former catholic. I visit relatives at easter and christmas, but I do not attend mass. That was a big thing. They were all upset over that. We also have a few jews in our family (yes, I know... a strange combination ), but there are more catholics than jews. They also think I should choose one or the other and that I should worship a deity. I've had baptism, first communion and confirmation. All for nothing in my opinion. So, what? Anyone who has not gone through these rituals doesn't go to heaven? And all my non-christian relatives don't go to heaven? Or the other way around? *blows raspberry* That's a bunch of crap.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel


ha, funny... I'm a former catholic. I visit relatives at easter and christmas, but I do not attend mass. That was a big thing. They were all upset over that. We also have a few jews in our family (yes, I know... a strange combination ), but there are more catholics than jews. They also think I should choose one or the other and that I should worship a deity. I've had baptism, first communion and confirmation. All for nothing in my opinion. So, what? Anyone who has not gone through these rituals doesn't go to heaven? And all my non-christian relatives don't go to heaven? Or the other way around? *blows raspberry* That's a bunch of crap.

I'm catholic and I don't beleive that all non christian's can't go to heaven.....I'm pretty sure that the Church doesn't teach that.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I'm catholic and I don't beleive that all non christian's can't go to heaven.....I'm pretty sure that the Church doesn't teach that.

yes... if you do not accept Christ as your saviour, you do not go to heaven. I went to a private Catholic school until I was in high school. This is what is taught.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Ruinel
yes... if you do not accept Christ as your saviour, you do not go to heaven. I went to a private Catholic school until I was in high school. This is what is taught.

as did I....the Church does teach that God will always keep His covenant with the Jews...they are His chosen people, so it is possible for a Jewsih person so go to Heaven without accpeting Christ. Also, if a person has never been introduced to God/Jesus but still lives a righteous life then God will allow that person into His glory.

[Sheeana]

Oh yes? What was that quote? Something like, "No one comes to the Father except through ME." ?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Oh yes? What was that quote? Something like, "No one comes to the Father except through ME." ?

I know, but God will never abandon His chosen people. Most of the Jews didn't accept Christ. The discipes tried to convert the Jews but they would have none of it, so they (the disciples) decided to convert gentiles instead.
I can't really explain it...I've only heard it recently and it's something that I believe because the Church teaches it and I beleive what the Church teaches.

[HOBBIT]

hmm well its a good thing that you weren't around during the middle ages or crusades or during the scientific revolution, age of enlightenment, or other dark times in the church's history.

Anyway, I wouldn't exactly say that I am an althiest exactly - just a very unreligious jew . Still basically consider myself jewish, despite my altheist notions. I still go to bar/bat mitzvahs of relatives, go to high holy days, have a cedar, light a menorah on hanukah. I just don't believe in all the god stuff. Plus, I do think it is very possible that i am a descendant of the ancient hebrews.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
hmm well its a good thing that you weren't around during the middle ages or crusades or during the scientific revolution, age of enlightenment, or other dark times in the church's history.

Anyway, I wouldn't exactly say that I am an althiest exactly - just a very unreligious jew . Still basically consider myself jewish, despite my altheist notions. I still go to bar/bat mitzvahs of relatives, go to high holy days, have a cedar, light a menorah on hanukah. I just don't believe in all the god stuff. Plus, I do think it is very possible that i am a descendant of the ancient hebrews.

I don't deny that the Church had done some "shady" things in the past...but Her beleifs have always stayed the same....it's the peole who follow them, they are imperfect so they will fall in trying to follow what God teaches.

what is the difference between a bar mitzvah and a bat mitzvah?

[HOBBIT]

bar is for a boy and bat is for a girl

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
bar is for a boy and bat is for a girl

oh...thanks!

[cassiopeia]

As I said, I've just begun to read the new testament. A passage which disturbed my said that whoever looks upon a women to lust for her has committed adultery. Then it basically goes on to say that you should pluck out your eyes if they cause you to sin, lest you be cast into hell. Now, can anybody honestly say that they have never, ever felt lust towards somebody, and if they did, did they pluck there eyes out? No, I didn't think so. Am I missing something here, or are we all going to hell?
I wouldn't die for Christ. I'm sure he was a good person, but I don't know him. I may die for my parents or sisters or friends, but not somebody I don't know.
I am trying my best to understand this, though it's difficult because I haven't been brought up in a religious family. Perhaps others (I'm not picking on anybody here, BTW) should make an effort to understand evolution (and yes I know many creationists do understand it). Then we can choose for ourselves which sounds more logical and most likely.
HOBBIT, I applaud your post.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I find it a little amusing that now someone who says that he believes in god is afraid that he will be laughed at - but in the past if you didnt believe in god you would be killed (or at least ostracized from everyone else).

Something I find somewhat strange is that people are always so quick to mention this, but they never say when the opposite was true.

Increasingly, more people are losing their faith (by my observations). At my school, there are barely any really religious people.

I would agree with you. I don't think that the time period you mentioned is a very good example...saying your Christian because you'll get torn into four pieces if you don't is NOT Christianity, or faith. Not of course that there WEREN'T true Christians during that time, but they were in all likelihood rare.

Organized religion was created basically to explain the world and control people, and to stop fear of death. It has no place in society today.

Hmm...I do agree, to a certain extent. I think that many organised religions have been used to control people, or are used to control people, though I don't think that's (necessarily) why they were created. The Church of England was created to get a divorce! And I definitely disagree that it has no place in society today. By the way, saying this can certainly be seen to be saying that people who believe in a god/gods are outdated, superstitious, primitive, morons, etc., which would certainly be seen as trying to change their beliefs. Something that really gets me is when people don't take the time to put "I believe" or "according to my beliefs" or something like that, when they deal with such important matters. I mean, obviously we don't know. Or rather, we all know different things. It just seems to me it would be only common courtesy and respect of other's beliefs to do this.
Blech, sidetrack, sorry.

I see no reason to believe in the Christian god over all other religions - its not better or worse than any others (plus, being raised a jew, the idea of christ in addition to god and that holy spirit or whatever makes it make even less sense).

I do; my personal experience has led me to believe in Him, reinforced by my strong Christian background. I have been pondering and questioning very much of what I have believed all my life over the last few months, especially regarding religion. This has not by any means destroyed or weakened my faith, but made it stronger (and also personalised it a bit ). As regarding the Trinity, I certainly don't pretend to understand it. I saw a passage this morning whichI felt to be VERY much supporting a lot of my belief regarding God, and appropriate to this situation:

Romans 11:33-34
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

I think there are many things about God which cannot really be understood; I think the Trinity is one of those things. One thing I found interesting was that a while ago, someone provided as evidence against the Trinity: "One plus one, plus one equals three, not one." The thought popped into my mind that one TIMES one TIMES one DOES equal one; in other words, I think that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost "interact" or whatever in a way beyond the human mind, as the math thing I think was something none of us could conceive of in such a situation

Religion just does not make any sense. If you think about it, almost nothing will make sense. The bible cannot be taken literally.

So does make people who do so liars, or just stupid?
I think the opposite. I think that it's so much simpler that there was an intelligent Designer (even in a Deistic way) then that this just so HAPPENED to take place, and then THIS just so happened to take place, and then THIS just so happened to take place, and on, and on, and on.

From what I've learned in school and from Christian friends, it just does not make any sense at all. It requires blind faith. Why should you believe in it? Because you were raised that way and your parents drilled it into you? You have no proof of any of it, and there is none.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

There has been plenty of "proof", but Christianity is more about faith; by grace are we saved through FAITH, works are the evidence and fruit of FAITH, and so on. Also, any proof is consistently rejected as hallucination, freak coincidence, or just flat out lies and propaganda. Oh yeah, and superstitious idiots. There are many people whom I doubt would believe if God the Father appeared in the Flesh and spoke to them, choruses of angels singing. The fact is, that there is flat out no point in mentioning proof or evidence.

If all the proof is a "good feeling" or whatever, then that is just silly. Billions of people exist happily without christ. And many millions (if not billions, dont know the number) exist without god or the christian/jewish/islam god. There is no emptiness in me without believing in something silly.

Other than to say that again, you are calling the beliefs of others ridiculous, and those who believe them simple-minded superstitious idiots, I'm not going to even bother.

I also am not a very devout Jew.... I haven't been to services in about a year. I really hate going. I am usually forced to go 1 or twice a year for high holy days. It holds no interest for me. I find it long and BORING. I'd much rather be home reading, watching tv, or computing.

As a side note, how long are Jewish services? Is there much of a difference in this matter or the matter of "setup" between conservative Jews and liberal (sorry, can't remember the one besides Reconstructionist, Orthodox, and Conservative) Jews?

But I can certainly empathise with you. Some people have really got nothing REAL to say; they don't seem to actually believe in what they say, there is nothing behind their sermons (for Christians).

Historically, I do believe that there is some fact in the torah (old testament). I am decended from the ancient hebrews and they really did exist. They were really enslaved in egypt, etc. And that has been proven.

Also, don't forget the Hittites, whom it was believed flat out did not exist until not so long ago.

I just don't buy all the god stuff. As for Jesus, I believe that it is possible for him to have existed, but was not God's son and was just an overhyped ordinary god with all that amazing stuff made up by his friends to sell a new religion. I have no read the new testament, but I will someday, if not just to understand allusions to it in literary works.

So, in other words, you have no faith.

Basically, I am a very open minded person. I believe in whatever seems rational to me.

That isn't really open minded. Sounds to me like you have to have it proved (at least to be plausible). Faith seems to me more "open-minded" than that. O, but faith is superstition of fools.

[quote]If there is a God, and he is really all that forgiving, then he will just forgive us and let us all into heaven regardless.[quote]

Did you read Rian's posts a little while back? This a PERFECT example of the "fluffy God" she was talking about. Now, I could go into IMMENSE detail about this, but I frankly don't have the time.

I would think that he would like people who THINK and who QUESTION and not just follow blindly like SHEEP. If not, then why the heck would I want to spend enternity with suc'h a messed up being?

Why? Because that's your mindset? Why do you think it necessary that a Divine Being, something of the scale of "God"" (if he exists) would even be wholly relatabe to mankind, let alone "made" specfically for you? Again, "messed up" because He doesn't imitate your thought pattern? So then, is anyone who disagrees with you automatically "messed up"? Or just God, and anyone dumb enough to believe in him? It always amazes me when non-theists say "If there was a God, he'd be just like me."

And really, like how many REALLY devout christians are there that go to church every sunday, are extremely charitable, and have commited NO SINS as described in the bible (or at least not confessed them all - not really sure - if you confess something, is that wiped off your slate?). What, will there be 100 people let into heaven?

Um....whoa. You have a SERIOUSLY off-kilter view on Christianity. I'm not sure if this is worse or Elfhelm's "salesman Christianity" (you get a commission on how many people you sell it to! ).

Hey, maybe there are more than I think. And what, are all non-christians screwed? Some good forgiving god, huh?

Again, by your perspective, and your viewpoint. Personally, I've always had some trouble with some some of these: I find it hard to believe that Jews (at least adherents to Judaism, maybe also ethnical Jews) who were God's chosen people, are no longer of any consequence.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
As I said, I've just begun to read the new testament. A passage which disturbed my said that whoever looks upon a women to lust for her has committed adultery. Then it basically goes on to say that you should pluck out your eyes if they cause you to sin, lest you be cast into hell. Now, can anybody honestly say that they have never, ever felt lust towards somebody, and if they did, did they pluck there eyes out? No, I didn't think so. Am I missing something here, or are we all going to hell?

What the passage means I believe is that it is BETTER to pluck out your eyes, and enter heaven blind, than to leave them, and enter hell.

I am trying my best to understand this, though it's difficult because I haven't been brought up in a religious family.

Good for you. I believe strongly in at least attempting to understand other's beliefs.

Perhaps others (I'm not picking on anybody here, BTW) should make an effort to understand evolution (and yes I know many creationists do understand it). Then we can choose for ourselves which sounds more logical and most likely.

Amen and amen. See above statement. Though I place more emphasis on personal experience than "logic", which is an entirely subjective term. (Though Vulcans rock )

HOBBIT, I applaud your post.

The one that says that anyone who believes in God is simple-minded, foolish, and silly? Oh, and don't forget "messed up".

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Oh yes? What was that quote? Something like, "No one comes to the Father except through ME." ?

"No man cometh to the Father but by Me." (women have "get out of jail free" cards )

But really, this is a VERY complex issue, and one I don't feel I can get into.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
hmm well its a good thing that you weren't around during the middle ages or crusades or during the scientific revolution, age of enlightenment, or other dark times in the church's history.

Anyway, I wouldn't exactly say that I am an althiest exactly - just a very unreligious jew . Still basically consider myself jewish, despite my altheist notions. I still go to bar/bat mitzvahs of relatives, go to high holy days, have a cedar, light a menorah on hanukah. I just don't believe in all the god stuff. Plus, I do think it is very possible that i am a descendant of the ancient hebrews.

A member of the Jewish people, but not a Jew by religion. I don't really think it's so commendable and evident of faith to think that that it's possible you are descended of the ancient Hebrews.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Bwahahahaha, now everyone try to wade through all THAT!

[HOBBIT]

I would read all that, but at the present moment I am too tired/ill (cold). Thanks for replying to my message though. I did read some of it.

Since I'm a reform Jew, services are only like an hour maybe an hour and a half at most. I guess not very long, but they seemed to be very long - and boring (imo). I've had to sit through some Conservative services for bar mitzvahs and the like, 3-4 hour services.....aaah. Thankfully I have never been to an orthodox service (even longer).

I didn't mean to be offensive in my post, really. About that feeling thing though. All I meant though is that when you ask why someone believes they just say basically its this feeling inside and a feeling of wholeness, etc. A happy feeling that they get from being with christ, etc. I was just saying that if this is the only reason, it doesn't hold water with me. I'm not saying that you shouldn't believe in it though....