Iraq

[Dúnedain]

I just want to re-emphasize something from that article I posted above:

"When he said we will bring the freedom to Iraq, I start to cry because it's our dream ... to have freedom," said Shamil. "I think he will keep his promise."

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You don't have to give me a history lesson on Benjamin Franklin.

But as is usual with the French - we had to be almost guaranteed of winning before they got involved to help us militarily. I also found it ironic that you had to go all the way to 1776 to find an event where the French helped us.

Now the real irony is that France ploughed so much money into helping the colonies that the ensuing french revolution brought about the democratic process which is now directly blocking you

Truly. fate works in mysterious ways

Maybe Powell should adopt Franklin's attitude and woo the French with his charms

Interesting addition to your sig JD-

Oh yes - And Death to all Greenpeace members.

Have the nasty people been disagreeing with you?......or calling you names again?....bless

[Sister Golden Hair]

Administravive Warning- Ok folks, here is how we are going to proceed. After receiving complaints about a few things, I am under the impression that this thread may need closer monitoring then it has recieved. So here's the way it is. This is not a niegbhood block party. This board reaches people from all over the world. If you wish to discuss the situation between Iraq and the U.S. it will be done in a more constructive fashion. Under no circumstances will Flaming of other members, or bashing other countries, including but not limited to the U.S and Iraq, be tolerated. If that occurs, the post will be deleted on sight, the thread closed, and possibly other action taken.

[Elvellon]

Good sense? Being reactive instead of proactive?

You can be like that - but we're going to be going to war in the first week in March. That is very clear. YWe're not going to wait for Saddam Hussein to build up his weaponry like North Korea did or the way Europe allowed Hitler to do. We're not going to wait for Saddam Hussein to start supplying terrorists with biological and chemical weapons, in order to take action.

That is an overly melodramatic, unsubstantiated attempt at futurology.
You keep comparing him to Hitler, yah, right. What do they have in common?

Let me answer that:
Saddan is immoral creature, greedy and ambitious. The only thing he believes is in his own welfare. But, his campaigns were a joke. He never managed to defeat Iran when he had the support and blessings of the US, and only tinny Kuwait could not resist him. Even so he only advanced to attack Kuwait because apparently he believed that the US wouldn’t object.

Is capability of using weapons of mass destructions is normally used as an argument for war, but those people that do so never seem to remind that he is supposed to have had them since before the Gulf War. During this last 13 years have he use them? No? Why? Many reasons could be said but, most of all, he had nothing to gain from it and because he feared retaliations. Now tell me, what reason may he have NOT to fear them in the future?
None.
And don’t come to tell me that it is about atomics; he is supposed to be near finishing his atomic program for nearly a decade and a half now. And even if he finishes it, what changes? Wasn’t he supposed to have biological and chemical weapons already?

Hitler was not even remotely comparable with Saddan, nor was Nazi Germany to Iraq. If you want to compare someone with Hitler would not be Saddan, it would be Bin Laden.
Like him, he is a fanatic with a cause, a dangerous one. Saddan only cause is himself. He is an opportunist, and can be contained, Hitler couldn’t be.

And in Europe - plenty of American bashing has gone on for many many decades. It's the great European pastime. On the many past entmoot anti-American threads - let's see some of the things we were bashed with. Americans are lazy, we're fat and stupid. We don't bother learning languages (no matter that we live in a hemisphere where only 3 languages are mainly spoken - and French is only in Quebec). America has no culture. America is evil and has never done anything good in this world (that one was repeated over and over - even by some people who are still on this board). I wish that Ben hadn't deleted all the Anti-American threads - then you'd see why I'm lashing out so much on it. Now everyone is trying to back pedal and act like there has never been any American bashing.

Not nearly so popular a pastime as it is to SOME Americans to complain of anti- Americanism whenever someone doesn’t agree with their position over something.
It is so much comfortable.
If we keep claiming that if someone opposes something we do “because they don’t like us” we can comfortably dismiss their protest, so much simpler and comfortably. Much better than actually try to figure it out who is right; after all, what if we are the ones wrong?

You complain about a FEW flaws perceived by SOME people about your nation (but then you like to attribute the authorship of all the criticism to all the Europeans).
You like to lecture us of how America is not culturally monolithic. Then let me remind you the obvious; neither are we. People perceive some flaws about you culture, true. But it would be interesting to notice that what may be a flaw to Jose is not to Henri, and what is a flaw to Henri is not to Joe. Everyone judges other nations using their own nation as comparison, you do no less.
Do Americans never perceive any cultural flaw about another culture? Of course you do. You yourself are very vocal about those that you perceive (but God forbid if they dare to do the same to you).
But do all Americans perceive the same flaws about any single nation? I think not.
America exports an IMAGE of itself, a partial, imperfect image. People judge you based on it, the same way you are judging us based or even more partial and imperfect images (after all, we don’t have such an industry exporting our culture for you to base your opinion).
Is this judgement necessarily fair/unfair? No. Nor it is equal to all the individuals making it.
And it is not because someone believes he identified a flaw in someone’s culture that he believes that nation does not have positive things, neither.

[

[Elvellon]

I know how Europe (particularly France) has their hand out for the American tourist dollar while at the same time under their breath saying "Damn uncultured Americans".
.
.
.

Please, give me a brake. There are, unfortunately, “Ugly American Tourists” (as there are of other nations). But you are very wrong if you think you are in the highest rank of the “Ugly Tourist championship” in Europe. Sorry to disappoint you, you are not even a runner up for the title.

But if you want to make tourism inside your country, well, good for you. We Portuguese defend the same thing about our country, anyway.

It's very funny by the way - how the demonstrators against the war are trying to convince us "We don't have any anti-American feelings - this isn't about American bashing - this is because we're against the war." No - your right - the demonstration USED to be American bashing - bu now Europe doesn't want the backlash of the American tourists cancelling trips and not spending money there. It'll actually affect your economy worse than it already is. It's about time Americans started boycotting countries who didn't appreciate us all these years.

The “funny thing” is that American tourism is hardly that relevant for the European Economy. Is but a small part of the European tourism industry, and for those not into the industry it have no relevance at all. And you want to justify the “sneaky explanation” of the protesters trying to cover up their “Anti-American” feelings because they had economical concerns, now that IS really hilarious.

The really thing you don’t want to see is that there are REASONS for not agreeing with the war. Like I said before, it is so much easy to pretend that those that oppose war do so because of bigotry that is to face the problem and discuss it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
That is an overly melodramatic, unsubstantiated attempt at futurology.
You keep comparing him to Hitler, yah, right. What do they have in common?

Let me answer that:
Saddan is immoral creature, greedy and ambitious. The only thing he believes is in his own welfare. But, his campaigns were a joke. He never managed to defeat Iran when he had the support and blessings of the US, and only tinny Kuwait could not resist him. Even so he only advanced to attack Kuwait because apparently he believed that the US wouldn’t object.

The US wanted neither Iraq or Iran to win that war. Either one winning would have brought instibility to the region. We were ONLY supplying Iraq in the war because of the Soviet Union was supplying Iran. Kuwait, Kuwait as the only country who resisted Iraq???? That is hiliarious. Maybe you should check what happened. Kuwait was fully occupied. The Royal family was in exile and it was the US led coalition who DROVE Iraq out of Kuwait.

Is capability of using weapons of mass destructions is normally used as an argument for war, but those people that do so never seem to remind that he is supposed to have had them since before the Gulf War. During this last 13 years have he use them? No? Why? Many reasons could be said but, most of all, he had nothing to gain from it and because he feared retaliations. Now tell me, what reason may he have NOT to fear them in the future?
None.

He's NOT supposed to have them? What you are proposing is let him have them, let him continue developing them, he hasn't used them yet - so why should we worry. Who cares if it's a terroristic regime - who is currently on the same road as North Korea.

And don’t come to tell me that it is about atomics; he is supposed to be near finishing his atomic program for nearly a decade and a half now. And even if he finishes it, what changes? Wasn’t he supposed to have biological and chemical weapons already?

Not even the French or Germans dispute the fact that he has chemical and biological weapons. Why is nuclear so bad? Let's see.... Move to the Asia penesula and look what is going on with North Korea. When yoyu have Iraqs nuclear missiles aimed right at you - which if he continues on the path he is - it will happen, I hope you call France and Germany to abil you guys out of this situation.

Hitler was not even remotely comparable with Saddan, nor was Nazi Germany to Iraq. If you want to compare someone with Hitler would not be Saddan, it would be Bin Laden.
Like him, he is a fanatic with a cause, a dangerous one. Saddan only cause is himself. He is an opportunist, and can be contained, Hitler couldn’t be.

Hitler was power hungry - the same as Saddam. Saddam entire goal has been to be the main power in the Middle East. If he develops enough weapons and the world community does NOT take a stand now - he will invade his neighbors. Then we will have much bigger problem to deal with.

Not nearly so popular a pastime as it is to SOME Americans to complain of anti- Americanism whenever someone doesn’t agree with their position over something.

The anti-americanism has been going on far longer than americans complaining about it or this particular even.

If we keep claiming that if someone opposes something we do “because they don’t like us” we can comfortably dismiss their protest, so much simpler and comfortably. Much better than actually try to figure it out who is right; after all, what if we are the ones wrong?

So tell me - what makes France and Germany right? Because they're against war? They were against war during WWII, they were protesting us putting nuclear weaponry in Germany in the 1980's saying that it was going to cause nuclear holocaust - instead it lead to the break up of the Soviet Union.

[jerseydevil]

You complain about a FEW flaws perceived by SOME people about your nation (but then you like to attribute the authorship of all the criticism to all the Europeans).

As I said in previous threads - I'm not going to list every single European country. And you can't deny that the French have had serious distain for Americans for a VERY long time. And that the common phrase among Europeans toward American tourists is "Damn Americans"

You like to lecture us of how America is not culturally monolithic. Then let me remind you the obvious; neither are we. People perceive some flaws about you culture, true. But it would be interesting to notice that what may be a flaw to Jose is not to Henri, and what is a flaw to Henri is not to Joe. Everyone judges other nations using their own nation as comparison, you do no less.

I never thought you were a monolithis culture. I KNOW Poland isn't like France and England isn't like Italy. It took some teaching on my part to many mooters in the anti-american thread to teach people that the US is basically NO different than Europe. That each state is a country - tied together through the Federal Government.

Do Americans never perceive any cultural flaw about another culture? Of course you do. You yourself are very vocal about those that you perceive (but God forbid if they dare to do the same to you).
But do all Americans perceive the same flaws about any single nation? I think not.

I was never like this until the anti-american posts of last year started appearing. Also after going on other message board or ICQ and seeing so many people saying "I'll talk with anyone except Americans". If you deny that this is the case then you are blind. I personally like Europe - but I like it A LOT less than I did before I had direct dealings with people from Europe. The anti-American threads where we were called lazy, fat, stupid people was the last straw.

America exports an IMAGE of itself, a partial, imperfect image. People judge you based on it, the same way you are judging us based or even more partial and imperfect images (after all, we don’t have such an industry exporting our culture for you to base your opinion).

I actually have seen it first hand. I've shown Europeans around and I've been to England. I've come into contacts with European tourists.

Is this judgement necessarily fair/unfair? No. Nor it is equal to all the individuals making it.
And it is not because someone believes he identified a flaw in someone’s culture that he believes that nation does not have positive things, neither.
[

So then why is one of the main complaint from you guys that we're patriotic. As I said in other threads - nothing prevents you guys from being patriotic. i don't think that Europe doesn't have any positive attributes - but I'm tired of hearing the "lazy fat, uncultured Americans" I'm proud of being an American. And if anyone in Europe has distain for our culture - our culture is the cultrue of the world. We celebrate almost every country in the world here. Americans celebrate the Chinese New Year, Cinco D Mayo, we have heritage celebrations all year long.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Now the real irony is that France ploughed so much money into helping the colonies that the ensuing french revolution brought about the democratic process which is now directly blocking you

Truly. fate works in mysterious ways

Maybe Powell should adopt Franklin's attitude and woo the French with his charms

they're not blocking us - they're just causing the inevitable from taking place. Chirac isn't concerned about peace - he's concerned about his billions in Iraqi deals. He wants to stand up to the US and this whole thing is a power trip for him. But basically it is viewed in the US that he has just killed the UN.

Interesting addition to your sig JD-

Have the nasty people been disagreeing with you?......or calling you names again?....bless

No they haven't calling me names again and I don't really care if they did. I put that in response to BoP's sig Death to the Bush Administration I wanted to make a point. I never criticised BoP once when I used to talk to her on AIM about her being in GreenPeace. I don't agree with them - but that is her opinion as to what she supports

Oh and if I had put that quote there because of her comment about New Jersey - I would have put something about New Zealand. I know she's ignorant about New Jersey - because she's never been here and she's never been to the US. She has no idea what New Jersey is like.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Is capability of using weapons of mass destructions is normally used as an argument for war, but those people that do so never seem to remind that he is supposed to have had them since before the Gulf War. During this last 13 years have he use them? No? Why? Many reasons could be said but, most of all, he had nothing to gain from it and because he feared retaliations. [

I guess you missed the fact that he dropped Anthrax from a plane onto his own people amongst other thigns he has used on them...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elvellon
The “funny thing” is that American tourism is hardly that relevant for the European Economy. Is but a small part of the European tourism industry, and for those not into the industry it have no relevance at all.

I sincerely hope you don't believe that! It might be the case in Portugal, however since American tourism has declined since 9/11/01 you can see the slow decline in the European Economy. It's funny how when the American economy is suffering and goes down, so too does the European economy. Coincidence? I think not....

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon
Please, give me a brake. There are, unfortunately, “Ugly American Tourists” (as there are of other nations). But you are very wrong if you think you are in the highest rank of the “Ugly Tourist championship” in Europe. Sorry to disappoint you, you are not even a runner up for the title.

yeah - my friend from Italy said to ignore the French - they hate everyone and everyone hates them.

But if you want to make tourism inside your country, well, good for you. We Portuguese defend the same thing about our country, anyway.

The “funny thing” is that American tourism is hardly that relevant for the European Economy. Is but a small part of the European tourism industry, and for those not into the industry it have no relevance at all. And you want to justify the “sneaky explanation” of the protesters trying to cover up their “Anti-American” feelings because they had economical concerns, now that IS really hilarious.

Do you understand ecomonics and how the tourism industry affects almost every part of a society. How it is a ripple affect? You may think it only affects hotels and restaurants and tourist attractions - but it affects TAX dollars which are placed on those business, it affects transport (taxis, rail,etc) it affects the lively hood of people all the way down to the maids. but your probably right - Americans may not make up a big part of tourism in Europe. But if it does and more schools and individuls start cancling trips - you will feel an affect.

People are cancelling French and German purchases, imported cheese, wines, etc.

The really thing you don’t want to see is that there are REASONS for not agreeing with the war. Like I said before, it is so much easy to pretend that those that oppose war do so because of bigotry that is to face the problem and discuss it.

By the way - did you see on Iraqi news today where Hussein has declared victory? We discussed th problem for 12 years. There have been numerous resolutions which Hussein has never complied with. The US has technically not even have had to go to the UN - part of the cease fire WAS the REQUIREMENT that Hussein comply. The Gulf War has never ended and won't end until Hussein unconditionally releases all his information on the weapins he holds and allows inspectors unconditionally to search for them. Even Hans Blix has said he is NOT complying. The 1441 resolution was very clear in that he MUST comply.

If we DON'T take action it will show the rogue states that the UN won't do anything or stand up to anything UNTIL they have the weapons.

You seem to want to deal with them when they are bigger threat than they are now. You want to deal with them as North Korea. I want to save lives and deal with Hussein NOW before he has all his weapons ready to hold the Middle East Hostage.

[Dúnedain]

This just in:

My roomate works for the US Government and we were just talking about the possibilities of war with Iraq. He told me that over 90, yes 90, countries want to go to war against Saddam, that includes 18, yes 18, countries in Europe. So this shows that this isn't just an U.S. issue....

[markedel]

I have mixed feelings overs this.

As a Canadian I always wish our neighbours to the south well, but I am unhappy that the government has painted itself into a corner to fight because invading Iraq could have aboslutely terrible consequences. The chaos from a war would seem to argue that the U.S should not fight.

But Iraq has WMD, and if the threat of force is rendered impotent (as it would be if the U.S has to back down) then Iraq will use the weapons it has at some point, and that would be very ugly.

[jerseydevil]

By the way - America's consumerism which Europe complains about a lot - is what keeps your countries going. All you have to do is just look at the trade deficit that the US has with Europe. It is constantly talked about in the papers here how the cargo containers are piling up in Port Elizabeth, because we currently import more than we export.

[Dúnedain]

This just in:

I just read that in Florida a restaurant owner poured out all of his French & German wine in protest of them.

In Pennsylvania a lawmaker is trying to pass legislation to ban the import of French wine to Liquor stores.




The above are only 2 instances of the turn around of American sentiment currently. In case you don't know, Pennsylvania & Florida are states in the US...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by markedel
But Iraq has WMD, and if the threat of force is rendered impotent (as it would be if the U.S has to back down) then Iraq will use the weapons it has at some point, and that would be very ugly.

not only that - but it'll create another North Korea which everyone says is a much bigger problem. And why is North Korea a problem today? Because of inaction from the UN, becasuse of negotiating three treaties with North Korea which they never adhered to.

If we want to prevent a North Korean situation in the Middle East then we have to take action while we have a chance.

I would rather have not have had war and when it was first talked about - I was against it. But as Iraq started initially to refuse inspectors - then when we had troops there - he accepted inspectors, then he refused to allow scientists to be interviewed, then when the US put more pressure on him - he accepted that. He IS a danger and he will only grow as a danger unless something is done.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
This just in:

I just read that in Florida a restaurant owner poured out all of his French & German wine in protest of them.

In Pennsylvania a lawmaker is trying to pass legislation to ban the import of French wine to Liquor stores.

The above are only 2 instances of the turn around of American sentiment currently. In case you don't know, Pennsylvania & Florida are states in the US...

California wines are better anyway. It annoys the french to no end when California wines beat them at international wine tasting competions. New Jersey also has a number of good wineries too.

[Erawyn]

You were only going by number of americans who don't support going without UN support - but after France - that number has now changed. More people see the UN for what it is - a debating society that refuses to take hard action.

Yes I know. I said going to war NOW. As in the next few weeks without UN support.

[jerseydevil]

This is what is so stupid about the peace activists who argue that North Korea is a bigger problem - so we shouldn't worry about Iraq.

There was an interview with our local paper with Joseph Cirincione who is the director of the nonproliferation project at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

What should we be doing about North Korea?
The administration is ignoring the fact that North Korea is steadily getting back into the plutonium production business

This is not true - we are currently working with South Korea, China and Japan and working out a plan. We have naval ships that have been to sent to North Korea.

There are three possibilities. Invade, which we can't do. Accept it, but that's dangerous. Or you can negotiate. The administration is ideologically opposed to negotiating with outlaw regimes. But the result is the North Korea is manufacturing plutonium that it can fashion into bombs or sell. It's far more dangerous than thr situation in Iraq.

Now it is more dangerous - but it started the same way Iraq is starting. Negotiating and taking at face value that they were complying.

It's also very easily solvable. We could negotiate a deal in a matter of weeks. North Korea is willing to sell us its nuclear program. We just need to negotiate the price.

In other words - pay off the local mafia of Asia. They have a gun at our head now - and in order for them not to kill us - we need to pay them off.

It would involve a nonagression pact, diplomatic recognition, aid. In exchange, we demand immediate removal of fuel rods and dismantling of all facilities so that we don't have to buy this horse again.

Funny thing is - we already did this. We already had all these things in the agreement that Clinton negotiated with North Korea. They were even continuing their nuclear program right under the nose of the UN inspectors. So I'm wondering - we have to "buy the horse" a second time and HOPEFULLY they won't do the same thing in another 5 years when they need more money?

I'm sorry it's like the mafia coming into a mom and pop store and telling the owners - we'll guarantee protection for a price. When they refuse - they're windows get broken and graffitii and everything goes on (problems they never had before). So they agree to pay - and the vandalism stops. Time goes on - and now the mafia says the price has just gone up - they refuse to pay the higher price. Again the vandalism and destruction to their store. Finally they agree a second time and everything stops.

This is basically what is going on in North Korea - and if Iraq isn't stopped now - it will be the same thing with Iraq.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Erawyn
Yes I know. I said going to war NOW. As in the next few weeks without UN support.

The numbers have changed since Friday and the polls aren't out on that.

As has been pointed out - 85% of Americans were against going into WWII until pearl harbor. I think the show by Chirac has changed people's minds in America reguarding going to war in Iraq.

Everyone talks about Clinton - but Clinton's OWN advisers are saying that we have to go into Iraq. That he has clearly not complied. We tried getting the world community behind us, that failed in terms of the UN and France and Germany. The Clinton advisors have even been saying that we can not allow them to dictate our national interests or foreign policy. Clinton has even gone on television and said the same thing. The American people did NOT elect the UN. The UN does NOT have a seat in Congress.