Theological Opinions

[Radagast The Brown]

I'm really sorry to hear about your friend, Rian.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Where should God draw the line, IYO? Why should he only minimize the number murdered, instead of stopping all the murders? Why should he stop at the Holocaust? Why not stop the ALL murders? Why stop at murder - why not stop all cruelties, like when my son in a wheelchair gets laughed at by kids at the playground? Where do you think God should draw the line at stopping people's actions, and why?

All I ask from God is to be consistant. If, in the times of the Bible, he kept helping and saving the people of Israel, answering the prays, why didn't He in the holocaust, the worst mass murder that has ever happened in the world, at least for what we know..?

I wouldn't mind Him stopping all murders.. and why not on the other hand? There is a difference between a murder and other cruelties, say robbery or just being mean. But it's his decision, I just wonder - why didn't he help when he was truly needed?

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

"Reality?" And on what would one base the idea that there is no answer? All that one has to base that on is the fact that one does not know the answer oneself. It's saying, "If I don't know the answer, there is no answer." That sounds like me when I was younger, struggling with math . That hardly seems to be a voice of reality. It is opinion alone, with no reason or evidence behind it.

It's not only me who has no answer, no human being does. In order for me to believe in God I need a better answer than 'God has his reasons to do so and so', when it makes no sense. How can one explain mass murder and a good god?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I'm really sorry to hear about your friend, Rian.

All I ask from God is to be consistant. If, in the times of the Bible, he kept helping and saving the people of Israel, answering the prays, why didn't He in the holocaust, the worst mass murder that has ever happened in the world, at least for what we know..?

I wouldn't mind Him stopping all murders.. and why not on the other hand? There is a difference between a murder and other cruelties, say robbery or just being mean. But it's his decision, I just wonder - why didn't he help when he was truly needed?

It's not only me who has no answer, no human being does. In order for me to believe in God I need a better answer than 'God has his reasons to do so and so', when it makes no sense. How can one explain mass murder and a good god?

I think you know it's not a new question. And C.S. Lewis may not have had the recipe for a nice healthy happy life, but he at least could have answered your question as far as is possible. To find it you should read "The Problem of Pain", which I hope is available in Israel...
C.S. Lewis makes a right point in saying that there is no such thing as "The Sum of Human Suffering" as if you can put a certain amount of people together that feel pain and have more pain. Each may sympathise with eachother, but they can only feel their own pain...etc.

All I ask from God is to be consistant. If, in the times of the Bible, he kept helping and saving the people of Israel, answering the prays, why didn't He in the holocaust, the worst mass murder that has ever happened in the world, at least for what we know..?

No, he isn't consistent. At least not to human eyes. But that does not mean that it (the Holacaust) happened because he wasn't looking. I can't really answer your question the way you want it (I have my own ideas, but they are only ideas, so I won't divulge), but I do think that reading the Lewis book will help you see it a bit differently than "why didn't things go well every bit in history?"

[Rían]

thanks, everyone, for your sympathy - she's at the neurosurgeon's right now (she's a nurse and knows and respects this guy)

I'm not able to articulate any type of post right now, but thank you for answering, Rad! I think you're asking good questions. I always enjoy posting with you I really feel that I have some honest answers, or starts of answers, to some of them, and hope to post soon.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

All I ask from God is to be consistant. If, in the times of the Bible, he kept helping and saving the people of Israel, answering the prays, why didn't He in the holocaust, the worst mass murder that has ever happened in the world, at least for what we know..?

I wouldn't mind Him stopping all murders.. and why not on the other hand? There is a difference between a murder and other cruelties, say robbery or just being mean. But it's his decision, I just wonder - why didn't he help when he was truly needed?

It's not only me who has no answer, no human being does. In order for me to believe in God I need a better answer than 'God has his reasons to do so and so', when it makes no sense. How can one explain mass murder and a good god?

There are a couple answers available regarding the Holocaust and all the rest of the persecution the Jews have been experiencing since the time of Jesus. These points are not all there is. I believe that God had more reasons behind the Holocaust than what we can see. These two available answers are also entirely based on Christian theology. They are consistent with the God of the Old Testament, but they assume Christian doctrine is also true.

The first point is that most of the Jews have rejected Jesus Christ as Lord. Consistently in Old Testament scriptures, when the Jews turned away from God, they experienced judgment as a result. Eventually, the everyone will be judged according to whether or not they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. However, according to the Christian Epistles, both judgment and blessing, as well as rewards, come always "first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles," for the Jews are God's chosen people.

The Jews' rejection of the Christ is no excuse for those who persecute them. Anti-Semitism is completely wicked. However, in the Old Testament, God often used wicked people with twisted philosophies to punish Israel for its sins. Assyria and Babylon would be two good examples. The persecution of the Jews that has occurred so strongly since the time of Jesus probably is in part because of the fact that they are God's chosen people, yet according to Christian theology, also denying God. God's judgments and his rewards always come "first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles."

The second point is also based on Christian theology. It is a pretty horrible point, as well. None of this is at all nice; it's all very, very ugly and horrible. When the Jews crucified Jesus, they cried out, "may his blood be on our heads and on our children." Thus, they cursed the Jewish people. The first phase of their curse: "may his blood be on our heads," was fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. I believe that the second part of the curse has pursued the Jews since.

This curse is not elaborated on in the scripture, so far as I know. It is recorded though, and the power of both curses and blessings is strongly attested in the Old Testament.

So here are two points that are consistent with the God of the Old Testament, but only make sense if one accepts Christian theology. If one denies Christian theology, I can see how all the terrible persecution the Jews have been experiencing since the time of Christ would appear to make no sense.


These are comments about the Jews in general, from a Christian perspective. I know, not all Christians will necessarily agree with me. However, they are my best understanding of what has happened to the Jews for the last 2,000 years, and have New Testament backing, as well as Old Testament consistency. I definitely apologize if I seem at all heartless when I say what I do. The Holocaust was an unspeakable tragedy, a nightmare beyond imagination. It is one of the worst blots on human history. After all this, I can understand you or others losing heart at the enormity of the evil and injustice that have been done you.

I am a firm believer that the God I know personally, the God of the Old Testament and the New, is a righteous, holy and loving God. He took all of our sufferings upon himself, experiencing them and conquering them. He became one of us, and that makes him more trustworthy and in a way closer to us than he would be otherwise. Jesus also said that every evil act anyone does to anyone else, he also experiences.

The new world that God will create after this one will no longer have pain as a part of it. One of the answers I hold to regarding pain in this world is that certain aspects of God's nature are impossible for us to understand without first understanding suffering and evil. We could not experience God's mercy or justice if we did not also experience injustice and cruelty. Without sin, we would have no frame of reference from which to understand what God was talking about, when he says he judges sin. God hates evil and loves good, but this would be incomprehensible if there were no evil. Furthermore, the glory revealed to God's followers after the suffering far outweighs what suffering we do experience here. It is the reward of righteousness, and of righteousness in the face of suffering and darkness.

Many of the strongest Christians have been those who suffered. From the Old Testament, we know that most of the Jews who worshiped God also suffered. This suffering strengthened their faith rather than weakening it. Those who stood the trial came closer to God than ever. This is a positive aspect of suffering.


Yet God will save Israel. He will have mercy on Zion, and in love will press it to his bosom, showering it with all the blessings of old and more. Then, those of us Gentiles who bless Israel will be blessed. Evil will crack against Zion. The time will come when your people lead ours in the way of salvation (Zechariah 14:16), just as in the past Israel was a light to the nations. And Jesus will be our king, as living water flows from his throne through all who believe in his name.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

That's pretty humble by any standards, BJ.

humble?

1. And God spake all these words, saying

2. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Originally Posted by inked

But, you have already decided that you will not believe. **shrugs**

There is not absence of evidence, BJ; there is absence of consideration of evidence.

not at all... i said that "i can't concieve of anything i could witness that would make me believe in a christian god"... i've considered the "evidence" posted here over the years very carefully and stated many times that the jury is out... there may be a god, there may not... and, if there is, it may be the christian god or it may be something else

but to "believe" in christianity as RÃ*an suggested, i'd have to either resolve those doubts, which i have not even after reading reams of "evidence", or be insincere and just ignore them, which i will not do either

[inked]

BJ,

Are you upset that the Creator has a few rules for life? As I recall, the folks that made my jigsaw aren't considered proud for the instruction book!

Your statement was rather absolute:
"... i said that "i can't concieve of anything i could witness that would make me believe in a christian god"..."
for a relativist I mean .

[brownjenkins]

i'm not upset... they're not my rules

while some do make practical sense, others do not (from my relative pov ), and there's an awful lot of muscle-flexing mixed in... it just doesn't strike me as something a supposedly "perfect being" would say

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Yet God will save Israel. He will have mercy on Zion, and in love will press it to his bosom, showering it with all the blessings of old and more. Then, those of us Gentiles who bless Israel will be blessed. Evil will crack against Zion. The time will come when your people lead ours in the way of salvation (Zechariah 14:16), just as in the past Israel was a light to the nations. And Jesus will be our king, as living water flows from his throne through all who believe in his name.

Well said Lief. (and I'm referring to the whole post, not just my selection.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownie

i would admire him if he was humble... the bible doesn't paint god as being very humble

*pictures God at a cocktail party with a drink in His hand, saying, "Well, yeah, I did make the universe and everything in it, but hey, anyone could have done that! Well, not really, but ..." *

I know what you mean, though, brownie ... but I think that objection goes away with some thought on the subject ...

btw, what's your definition of humble?

I have lots of points I want to post about, maybe next week... keep talking, guys!

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

btw, what's your definition of humble?

Humble is that one who lives in the truth.

[Nurvingiel]

There has been a lot of activity in this thread. Wowz. You guys are awesome.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Thanks. Will keep it in mind. And I know sooner or later I'll get a job.

Have you ever thought of doing something with your terrific English skills? You could teach English in Eastern Europe or Asia (or somewhere else with demand). I'd say in Sweden too, but you guys already learn English in secondary school. There are English teachers, but I think there's higher demand in some other countries.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Of course, if you believe in free will, the analogy doesn't fit. I think it fits pretty well from a predestination standpoint, to explain predestination.

I see what you mean now. Though it furthers my dislike for predestination. I smacked myself in the face; did God decide that for me in advance? Why God? That's just mean. (I actually hit myself kind of hard too. Whups. I didn't mean to! But maybe God intended me to, for doubting predestination. )

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I look at it differently. We're agreed that the term free will is being used as meaning freedom from God, correct? So God does not choose what actions we make. We do. Granted?

I agree with that. Well, free will = freedom from God deciding the course of our lives, but semantics shmemantics.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

In that case, God has no hand in our choices, by definition. If he has no hand in our choices, he is leaving them to random chance. To me, a God who assigns his creations' fates to random chance doesn't seem to care about them very much. I don't think that RÃ*an's view that predestination and free will work together really makes sense either, for it is a contradiction in terms. God can't make an impossible chess move without breaking the rules, even though he's omnipotent. He can't do what intrinsicly doesn't make sense. Therefore he cannot both control our fates and not control our fates. They're contradictory.

Well, I wouldn't say he has no hand at all in our choices. He did make us, and I think that counts for something. I believe that people are generally good, for example. Thus, people's general goodness will influence their decisions - people try to do the right thing. What God does not control, IMO, is the decision itself. Some people decide to be cruel. I don't think this means God doesn't care about us. I think of Him as a parent with grown children who lets us live our own lives out of love.
If I had a child who was 25, I would let him make his own decisions. I would give him advice sometimes (solicited or otherwise), and I would have raised him to be a kind person which hopefully would have worked out, but ultimately his life decisions would be his. That's more how I see God's relationship with humanity. I have a hard time putting some of my feelings on this into words - I see our relationship as being more complex than what I wrote, but I think that's a decent analogy. (All analogies, at some point, fall apart.)

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Furthermore, according to scripture, "broad is the path to hell, and narrow the path to life." One could very easily interpret this (from a free will standpoint) as meaning God has loaded the dice (what we do, he left to random chance) against us.

I'm not quite sure what I make of that quote to tell the truth. This has partly to do with my refusal to believe that non-Christians are going to hell.
I could accept that He guides us. I'm not sure how that would work though.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Neither of these points means that predestination is wrong. I have said that it is God's fault that there is evil in the world, so I am one of the "general people" in that respect. The cop-out that we can't make a difference in the world doesn't make too much sense to me. Frodo Baggins in LoTR was able to make a difference. True, Tolkien wrote this, however, it was in Frodo's personality to do what he did. Frodo freely chose it. It would have been out-of-character for him not to choose it. God doesn't make us choose things that are out-of-character, or at least not even slightly often, so far as I know.

Does that mean God predestined all the children who would die of curable childhood diseases, AIDS and HIV, starvation, war, child soldiers, torture, poverty, cruelty, intolerance, rape, hatred, ignorance, and all the other awful things in the world? I have a hard time believing that God is such a complete dillhole. This is my biggest problem with predestination. Because if it is so, I would have trouble believing that God loved us at all. (But I do think He loves us, thus my problems with this theology.)

Frodo had a personality and made decisions solely because Tolkien wrote him that way. Frodo is nothing at all without Tolkien. Is that what you mean about predestination? (I'm not judging this point.)

I'm glad to know that you don't use predestination as a cop-out. Not that I thought you would anyway.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

How does that make it meaningless? The fact that it is predestined means that God has purpose in all that happens and designs reality for with righteous intentions. That means it has meaning from God in addition to the value we already see.

This goes back to my problems based on there being a lot of evil in the world.

With free will, I could choose to work hard in life and try to help other people. I could also choose to be nasty to people. Or I could just coast through life.

Without free will, any of those outcomes are no longer choices. Then, what's the point of working hard?

I used to train in karate with this guy whose parents forced him to take karate. He was very talented, but he didn't want to be there. Karate didn't hold any meaning for him, and he quit as soon as he was allowed. I chose to take karate, so I worked very hard. My friend had a lot of talent, but since he didn't really want to be there, all his work was towards being allowed to quit (which was when he got his black belt).
Life is like karate then. If someone is making you do it, what's the point?

Good luck on your exams Lief!

I'm going to try out a scenario from a predestination standpoint.

Let's say you get an A- on your exam, because you studied hard. Would that mean God decided you would work hard, and remember what you studied, to get that great mark? (I hope this is so. )

Originally Posted by inked

God's will has more than one apect, Lief. There is God's absolute will which will be accomplished, then there is His conditional will which allows human freedom of choice that matters by the reservation of His omnipotence to that end, and then His permissive will, which allows the consequences of human's choices to play out in the created order.

Well said Inked.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Bingo...

Its all about the veil... How we interpret the divine.

I often think that too. (I also think I'm not a very good Christian. But I am a good person so I guess that's alright then.)
LOL Spock!

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

*pictures God at a cocktail party with a drink in His hand, saying, "Well, yeah, I did make the universe and everything in it, but hey, anyone could have done that! Well, not really, but ..." *

That's kind of what I was thinking too. Why should He put on false modesty?

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Humble is that one who lives in the truth.

What is the truth?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Fat middle

Humble is that one who lives in the truth.

I totally agree with you, FM (sorry for slipping into the Valley Girl speak) and I await brownie's answer!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

What is the truth?

Quote from Jesus Christ: "I am the truth."

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Quote from Jesus Christ: "I am the truth."

That is certainly one answer.

What did you think of the rest of the post?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

btw, what's your definition of humble?

not prideful

i understand the concept that, if you believe god is as all-powerful as stated, you could say "why should he put on false modesty?", but i'd say, "why not?"

if his concepts of morality are so good for humanity, they should be powerful enough in and of themselves... it's unnecessary for such a god to say things such as:

5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

the christian concept just seems to depend too much on the pure recognition of god's status... as i've argued before, you could live the life of mother teresa, but if you followed a belief system like buddhism, or were mostly agnostic, you would be damned when you died... and, on the flipside, you could live the life of joseph stalin, but if you sincerely repented late in life you would get salvation upon death

to me, this seems to put very little value on how you live your life... i'm not saying that i know whether or not this god is the true god... i'm just saying that even if this is the true god, i could not go along with this kind of philosophy... i'd much prefer a god that focused more on how you live your life here on earth and less on whether or not you recognize and appreciate his status

repentance just isn't enough in my eyes for some actions

[inked]

OH, Nurv, not the truth thingy again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Recall that Socrates defined truth in words of one syllable:

Truth is to say of that which is that it is and of that which is not that it is not, and not to say of that which is that it is not and of that which is not that it is.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT?

[Fat middle]

I understand your point, BJ, but I believe that you cannot read the Bible that way.

See, God does not speak to us like a teacher does to his/her class... he reveals Himself to us at a very slow pace from the begining of humanity. For this relelation he uses nature and other elements, being one of the most important the history of his chosen people and the recording of hat history in the Bible.

The history of Israel shows us how God is revealing himself introducing concept after concept through the stories of individual remarkable characters of that people (Abraham, Mosses, Isiah...). Each story or book comes with new teachings that could not be uderstood before. All this revelation process tends to prepare us for the definite step: a personal revelation of himself when he sends his Son so we can knew "the human face of God".

There, in Jesus, you can see what means humility in God: from his birth in Bethlehem to his dead refused by us in the cross. Can you conceive a greater humiliation?

[brownjenkins]

i understand... it's just the "his chosen people" part that gets me... he seems to be rather selective in who he chooses to enlighten... you can go back to adam and eve... he tells them not to eat the fruit from the tree, but he doesn't take the time to say why... basically it's just "because i am who i am and i said so"

if you choose to give people free will and are also going to hold them accountable for how they exercise that freewill, yet give them very little in the way of a roadmap on what you expect, you are not really being that fair (IMO, just for spock )

it's like leaving a child in the middle of new york city and saying "be careful"... and then judging them 60 years later by how they turned out

and many of the revelations came hundreds of years after many had lived their entire lives, the jesus one included... not to mention the fact that what may have happened in the middle east 2000 years ago took many hundreds, if not thousands of years in some cases, to reach the rest of the world

and it doesn't address the mother-teresa-type who just happens to be a buddhist because of who her parents were and where she grew up... it has a members-only feeling to it that i just can't warm up to... this is not to say that it is a bad morality to live life by if you are in fact a member (and this is not exclusive to christianity at all, that is just what we are talking about at the moment)

i guess i'd just expect a creator to take a much wider approach to guiding his creation

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

That is certainly one answer.

What did you think of the rest of the post?

After exams today, I may respond to yours and Inked's free will posts. I know brownjenkins is also waiting on me, though luckily he's got plenty of other things to post about for while waiting. The truth response was a one sentence answer on a non-predestination subject, so I felt like just answering it then. The rest will take a good deal more time. I'll find the time soon.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i guess i'd just expect a creator to take a much wider approach to guiding his creation

I'm sure God will take your advice into account, next time he decides to create a universe .

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Quote from Jesus Christ: "I am the truth."

The full quote IMR was "I am the truth, the way and the life" There's more to it but that places it in the correct context.