11-15-2007, 11:39 AM | #841 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Hey, speaking of governments and ignorance...
A Government campaign in Italy: http://courageman.blogspot.com/2007/...uscan-sun.html So, it would appear that we have governments willing to support anything on either side of the aisle on this matter, regardless of data. The data are definitely NOT THERE to support this campaign. It's a nice sentimental scientism at work, but not hard science with demonstrated correlations. Unless you are also willing to accept "the God gene" and various other pseudoscientific hypotheses. On-going study certainly indicates that evaluation is in progress. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC CERTAINTY of this allegation.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 11-15-2007 at 11:40 AM. |
11-15-2007, 11:44 AM | #842 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Execution for homosexuals is too extreme- they should only be locked up.
"Texas Sodomy Statutes - We oppose the legalization of sodomy. We demand that Congress exercise its authority granted by the U.S. Constitution to withhold jurisdiction from the federal courts from cases involving sodomy." Texas Republican Party Platform 2006.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
11-15-2007, 12:44 PM | #843 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
That said, as I've stated elsewhere, the word "choice" is very misleading since all of our choices in life are extremely, and maybe even completely, governed by influences that we do not control. The problem is that they are making a distinction between genetic inheritance and social inheritance where there should not be one. So "sexual orientation is not a choice" is an accurate statement, but only because nothing in life is a choice.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
11-15-2007, 02:56 PM | #844 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
11-15-2007, 11:59 PM | #845 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Inked, even though someone's blog != a source of actual news, I actually agree with you! I'm as shocked as you are.
As far as I know, there isn't data to support that you're born with a certain sexual orientation. (That data also lacks to say you're not.) Data is also lacking to say whether or not your sexual orientation is a choice. Personally, none of that matters to me because I think all sexual orientations are fine regardless, but some people really hang their arguments (both pro and con) on this. Quote:
But that's another thread.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
11-16-2007, 02:23 AM | #846 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
What that word "change" means varies some from person to person. With some the change is more pronounced than with others. But the report urges that some people that want to change should be referred to such therapies, because they have strong psychological benefits for those that go through them. I presume that those benefits involve stress relief, greater comfort with self, etc. The report also advises that other people should not be referred to such therapies, but instead to groups that are accepting of homosexuality, because those people would probably (according to the report) be more likely damaged than aided by the attempt at change. People that have strong religious convictions which run into conflict with their sexual desires are those that are primarily urged to take advantage of those therapies, because psychological damage occurs when one's religious beliefs are in conflict with one's sexual orientation. It's a pretty long report, but I read it all. I'll find it again and cite it, in case anyone's interested in reading it. I found it highly illuminating.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
11-16-2007, 10:20 AM | #847 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Think about it in another situation: If you lived in Saudi Arabia as a christian, you'd be subjected to a lot of stresses a muslim, who is a part of the majority, would not be. One way to approach this problem would be therapy to convert you to the muslim faith. If done in a positive way, it would probably work and lead to a much less stressful life for you over there. Another approach would be to give the therapy to the muslims who are giving you stress about being a christian. I know which approach I'd choose, if I could. The report you cite also proves my point that we don't make choices, but instead make our decisions based on external influence. One "decides" to go to therapy because of the stresses society places upon them, and they change as a result of that therapy. Without the external pressures, there would be no change.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
11-16-2007, 02:11 PM | #848 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I don't see how that follows. The studies the report cited didn't attempt to differentiate between those whose religious motivations were born entirely from external pressures and those in whom it's all personal conviction. I think there often is a blend of the two, anyway.
As regards stress, I think it can be either a good thing or a bad thing, depending on who's feeling it and why. It can lead people to make either good decisions or bad ones.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-16-2007, 02:37 PM | #849 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
And who or what defines what is "good" or "bad" exactly? Homosexual "cure" programs have largely been shown to be ineffective in that they dont erase the underlying homosexual feelings. But instead they may teach people who are so inclined to successfully lead a "heterosexual" lifestyle complete with wife, kids etc. If someones religious upbringing and indoctrinization have made them a neurotic mess because their natural homosexual feelings seem to be in conflict with the religious dogma they have been taught then “converting” to being straight is certainly one option. But it should be made clear this is more of a masking then a true transformation of ones basic feelings and desires. Those who are good at denial usually are more successful at it then others.
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
11-16-2007, 03:04 PM | #850 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Actually, changes of desires and instincts were found to occur among a significant number of those that went through the therapies. The degree to which homosexual thoughts went away varied from person to person. Some reckoned themselves to have experienced only a little change, others a dramatic change, and some no change. With some people, the change became even more pronounced after they left the therapies, while with others, they reverted back to old ways.
But changes in thoughts or feelings certainly was taken into account in the program, in spite of there not always being a "perfect fix."
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-16-2007, 04:22 PM | #851 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
The point is, who needs to change? I think that if people were taught to be more tolerant of homosexuals, 90% of the issues this study claims to "fix" wouldn't be issues in the first place.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
11-16-2007, 08:14 PM | #852 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
It doesn't seem very "tolerant," does it, to demand that these people change their attitudes instead of their orientation?
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-16-2007, 11:00 PM | #853 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
In a perfect world I guess people would all be the same, but that's not the world we live in. Tolerance is living with differences that we don't agree with, but that also don't really effect us personally in one way or another on a day to day basis. It's looking for a change in attitude as opposed to a change in action. It wouldn't really effect me one way or another if one of my neighbors was homosexual, but it would effect him or her if I decided to make a public issue out of the fact. The former is tolerance, because I'm not gay and don't relate in any way to the lifestyle, but if they are good people, I live and let live. The latter is intolerant because I am not reacting to anything that my neighbor has actually done to me or those I care about, I am mearly reacting to his or her orientation. I'm assuming that there must be something wrong, eventhough I don't see it. Something like sexual orientation is as deeply ingrained in an individual as religious orientation and, while we certainly could deprogram people so that they all followed the same sexual tendencies, I see it as draconian compared to the idea of simply dealing with the differences unless and until they cause real issues. There's nothing wrong with being a muslim unless you are one of the small percentage that becomes a terrorist. In the same light, there's nothing wrong with being homosexual, or heterosexual for that matter, unless there are real issues connected with it. Basically, think of people as individuals instead of categories. That's tolerance.
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
11-16-2007, 11:20 PM | #854 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
NURV!
Yes, data is data. No data is no data. Allegation is allegation. In view of the latter, "I've met a number of really awesome Persians, and it must suck for them that they have such a lousy government. Ditto for Americans, though at least they are as bad." Clarify: they are as ignorant? they are as awesome? they are as bad(=wicked=good)? Or, was this some sort of Canadianism? Canuckism?
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-17-2007, 02:29 AM | #855 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
That's what I was talking about. And wouldn't it be more "tolerant" for those who find homosexuality an acceptable form of behavior to be accepting of people's decision if they want to change to heterosexual? Since tolerance consists of "living with differences that we don't agree with"?
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-17-2007 at 02:32 AM. |
|
11-17-2007, 09:17 AM | #856 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
You'd be better off teaching that homosexual person how to better deal with people who have unwarranted prejudices towards them. Do you think it would be right to suggest to a christian in a muslim majority nation that it might be a good idea to consider becoming muslim? Or would it be better to teach them ways to deal with the prejudices they will face?
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
11-17-2007, 01:28 PM | #857 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
If I came at it with your assumptions about reality rather than mine, I would give the wavering Christian the phone numbers of Muslim support groups as well as those of Christian support groups. This is partly because not all Christians could be seen as wavering because of external pressures alone- he or she might have a genuine interest in becoming a Muslim. If the person is sincerely interested in Islam because of really thinking it might be true, and you only give the person information about how to remain a Christian, wouldn't that be "intolerant" of you? Also, let's just consider for a moment if the person really is being pressured by other Muslims to become a Muslim. If the person is under such pressure, who are you to make the decision for her that sticking to those beliefs is worth it? Would you really only give the information to the person about how to stay Christian if the person or her family is at risk? Shouldn't that be the individual's decision to make? Quote:
A few years ago, I opened a fantasy book and skimmed through it to a very, very vivid rape scene, and I read it all very eagerly. I was fully aware that what I was doing was sinful, but I did it anyway. For months afterward, I struggled with very intense lewd and sexual thoughts. I prayed instantly afterward for forgiveness, but I had committed willful sin and had known that I should be stopping even as I pressed on. Victory over willful sin is not always easy. I battled against those thoughts in Jesus' name and power, after that, but it was only after many months of very psychologically painful fighting that the battle was won and those thoughts stopped emerging. Many, many people would react to those thoughts the same way I did. If you had just taught me at that time how to deal with people that had a problem with those thoughts, it would not have been any help. As you probably know, it wouldn't be easy to convert me into a relativist. More helpful for my psychological ease of mind would have been to advise me in how to dump those thoughts and then help me to do so. Quote:
So you have to look also to the "problem" people have when they have the wrong ideology and put that ideology above their sexual orientation.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-17-2007 at 01:32 PM. |
|||
11-17-2007, 09:56 PM | #858 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
Anybody can be a blogger and they are not held to any level of accountability except that of their readers. Newspapers must at least meet some sort of journalism ethics and intergrity, as well as be accountable to their readers, so they are more reliable. (How reliable exactly depends on the newspaper/magazine itself. Eg. Econimist = yes, The Province = not very) Lief: While there may be the outward evidence that someone has successfully changed his or her sexual orientation, it is extremely hard to tell if they really did change their orientation. How can you know for sure? There are so many external factors in a program designed to change one's orientation that you can't really know if they're simply beaten down or sick of the program or just want to make their family/psychologist/themselves/whoever happy. Either way, as long as that person is happy than it doesn't matter to me what their sexual orientation is. But it seems that the argument that would follow "one can change one's sexual orientation," is "one should change one's sexual orientation," and you simply cannot make such a leap. (Just in case you were going to go there.)
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
11-18-2007, 01:12 AM | #859 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Lief, I'd like to see those studies cited by the APA. On their own website FAQ on homosexuality, they say this:
Quote:
Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
11-18-2007, 01:23 AM | #860 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
NURV, the poster was made by the regional government advocating a pseudoscientific rationale for opinion. Does it really matter that the poster was on a blog instead of a newspaper when the local government is putting it up in public venues?
Sheesh!
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
LOTR Discussion: Appendix A, Part 1 | Valandil | LOTR Discussion Project | 26 | 12-28-2007 06:36 AM |
Do you know this.... | Grey_Wolf | General Messages | 997 | 06-28-2006 09:29 PM |
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 988 | 02-06-2006 01:33 PM |