Why you believe what you believe I

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks for the report, Inked! I watched one of Flew's debates on television, and it was really neat stuff. I find it truly fascinating to see this change, and I'm very glad you've let us know .

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

[french accent]But of course! [/french accent]

Heh heh

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Why do you think that might be? One reason might be that God doesn't exist, but since you say you're a Christian, you don't believe that. So given that you're a Christian, and that many, many Christians talk about God's transforming power in their lives (including me), why do you think this might be?

Yes... I do think God exists. Why have I not noticed God's presence in my life (in a more obvious way than God occurs in everyone's lives)? Beats me!

Crap... break over... will answer later!

[inked]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Thanks for the report, Inked! I watched one of Flew's debates on television, and it was really neat stuff. I find it truly fascinating to see this change, and I'm very glad you've let us know .

aww, shucks, * shuffles feet* Obi Wan, it was nothin' .

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What do you mean by "cyclical"? What might this look like, IYO?

hawking speaks of one theory in his first book about a universe that is kind of like a four-dimensional donut... instead of seeing a beginning and end (i.e. big bang), it is a constant cycle of energy/matter which slowly twists in upon itself and renews... the particular theory was more an experiment to him than anything else... but the data was surprisingly consistant with what we observe

one must remember that theories involving things like our universe are themselves based upon theories and assumptions... there were some very accurate and exacting theories when it was thought the sun was the center of our solar system... so accurate that predictions of planetary movement, while not perfect, were extremely good... it was not until the system was thrown out that an even better "sun centric" theory was developed... the same could easily be true about today's theories of the universe

What about heat death?

more theory based upon theory

What do you mean by "intelligence"?

complexity does not necessitate intelligent design... look at a spider web then give the spider and IQ test

humans like to think it does, 'cause it makes us feel special... kind of like "mini-creators"... but in the end i think it is time that creates complexity

How does our concepet of linear time make things hard to grasp? What things does it make hard to grasp?

much like our lives have "beginnings and endings" we like to apply the same to all we observe... and as scientists we like to tie up loose ends... we love to create "constants" when developing our theories and assume the observer is outside of the experiment... in reality, we are part of any experiment we perform, and it may very well be that we are so intricately intwined that we cannot even come up with "facts" that are not tainted by our own point of view

multi-dimensional space and an infinite universe are a few examples of this... we can't put our minds around it, so we impose limits and try to shape theories that fit within those limits

Why? (and please reflect a little more deeply than just a first-thought-in-your-head answer)

sorry, but there isn't too much more to it... other than to say that one must approach any of these questions with a completely open mind... and while often depending upon prior theories, have the willingness to throw the entire lot out the window if a better solution is arrived at... most groundbreaking theories throughout history did just that

to be continued...

[Rían]

complexity does not necessitate intelligent design... look at a spider web then give the spider and IQ test

humans like to think it does, 'cause it makes us feel special... kind of like "mini-creators"... but in the end i think it is time that creates complexity

No, that didn't answer what I was asking. I wasn't referring to intelligent design. Just simply - What do you mean by "intelligence"? (the way you used it in your post)

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

... but in the end i think it is time that creates complexity

Interesting... but not necessarily true (with regards to biology). I assume you're not implying a degree of linearity?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Why do you think humanity wants to understand the world around us? (again, please reflect a bit - give your thoughts some room)

i don't like giving epic posts 'cause i don't usually like to read them myself, and they can tend to stray the mind from the big concepts... which is what i prefer to think about... i.e. one can say "god must exist simply because most people on this planet think he does" and then give many examples of this belief... but in the end, belief, no matter how universal, does not make something exist

we try to understand the world around us because we have the ability to observe, learn and theorize... but it is always important to remember that we are limited by our ability to "perceive"... as i've mentioned, there many be many forces in our universe... not necessarily limited to "god"... that we have not yet "perceived", but have a huge effect on why things act as they do

Do you believe that there is one actual reality, even if no worldview that we are presently aware of describes it?

i assume you mean this in reference to my "bits and pieces from religions" statement... if so, i don't believe there is one "right" belief system... if there was a "god" and he wished us to follow a specific set of beliefs, he would have made the correct choice much more obvious, knowing that all his creations are not scholars, or can even read for that matter

Why is it good to be peaceful and harmonious?

humans are social animals who, like all animals, wish to survive... we are also intelligent enough (most of the time) to realize that peaceful coexistance with one another is the best route to our own preservation and self-happiness

Why?

being a social animal, humans tend to relate best with those they are closest with... they trust those they know well... on the flipside, the more distant and unfamiliar, the more likely they are to be distrustful and form prejudices based upon negative behaviors they see from a select few of other societies... these can be religious, economic, racial, national, etc.

belonging to and promoting any given group, no matter how benevolent that group's outlook has a tendency to alienate those outside it, whether intentional or not... and when tension arises, one tends to support one's own group and view the other side in a more negative light, even if facts might point otherwise

on religion specifically... i tend to think about the philosophy of it and not the "divine source" behind it... i think one can easily read the koran, the bible, or any other religious text and say "there's a lot of good advice in there to live by", while at the same time not be required to buy the belief system

What personal bad experiences have you had? What second-hand bad experiences have you heard about?

i don't want to list examples of bad things that have resulted from belief systems... i'm sure we all know enough... but i think the source of the "bad" is usually the inflexibility inherent in any total belief system... once you cross the line and say "this must be completely true"... whether you admit it or not, you are saying that anything contrary to it is wrong... in reality, right and wrong are relative to local human societies, so these "absolutes" cause tension where there does not have to be any

I agree with this negative you've seen; are you aware of any positives in this area?

sure, too many to list... but any positive thing ever done by a religious group could just as easily be done leaving "god" out of the equation... build schools for humanities sake, feed the poor for their own sake, etc.

Why are you NOT a Buddhist?

because i chose to believe or not believe in individual ideas... not entire systems... i like to have a "line-item-veto" when it comes to religion

If YOU were God , and wanted to create sentient beings that you could love and relate to, and who would be blessed by loving and relating to YOU, how would YOU have done it?

i'd be 100% honest and upfront if that was what i wanted... i'd be vocal and accessible so that while still giving them the ability to make their own choices about their own lives... my pov would not be a matter on conjecture, easily coopted by those who claimed to have contact with me

Brownie - given your worldview, what would YOU say to a young girl who was abused by her father and left home and is now a prostitute to get money to survive? What would you have to say to her about fairness?

i would say that life has been very hard, but it is something we can not change... and the sooner she realized that the past was the past and the future was dependent upon what she, and she alone, decided to make of it, the better... one can be happy in any situation if they stop worrying about "fairness" and what "luck" other people have had... happiness can only come from the inside, if you can't find peace within yourself, you'll never find it anywhere

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

No, that didn't answer what I was asking. I wasn't referring to intelligent design. Just simply - What do you mean by "intelligence"? (the way you used it in your post)

ok

i said there is no intelligence behind the creation of the universe... no creator... (i.e. it just happened... or maybe has always existed)

that said, there are creatures within it (i.e. us) who can think about these things and theorize about them... we label this "intelligence"

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Interesting... but not necessarily true (with regards to biology). I assume you're not implying a degree of linearity?

i'm referring to those who say things like "DNA can not have just developed naturally because it is too complex"

they don't understand the time scale that has allowed such a structure to develop

things don't have to become complex, but they can

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

much like our lives have "beginnings and endings" we like to apply the same to all we observe... and as scientists we like to tie up loose ends... we love to create "constants" when developing our theories and assume the observer is outside of the experiment... in reality, we are part of any experiment we perform, and it may very well be that we are so intricately intwined that we cannot even come up with "facts" that are not tainted by our own point of view

multi-dimensional space and an infinite universe are a few examples of this... we can't put our minds around it, so we impose limits and try to shape theories that fit within those limits

Awesome! Somebody who doesn't need to believe the postulate in order to use it! Thank you! It's good to know I'm not alone in this guess at the illusory nature of time. I think all that really exists is the present. The rest is fantasy, very useful fantasy. Every story we tell, even if we write it immediately, is fiction because we created the time basis of the tale. There never was a beginning. Only our birth (which is not a beginning) makes us think in terms of beginnings, but it's just a convenience.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Awesome! Somebody who doesn't need to believe the postulate in order to use it! Thank you! It's good to know I'm not alone in this guess at the illusory nature of time. I think all that really exists is the present. The rest is fantasy, very useful fantasy. Every story we tell, even if we write it immediately, is fiction because we created the time basis of the tale. There never was a beginning. Only our birth (which is not a beginning) makes us think in terms of beginnings, but it's just a convenience.

very good way of putting it

[EarthBound]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'm referring to those who say things like "DNA can not have just developed naturally because it is too complex"

they don't understand the time scale that has allowed such a structure to develop

things don't have to become complex, but they can

Certainly there is chance for anything to appear, but the 4th law of Thermodynamics goes a long ways in saying "nope, not going to build anything today, thank you). (as long as Philosophy is trying to answer the basic unanwered scientific questions there'll be contention among the masses)

Time is reference, and whether the scale is tremendous or quite imaginable gives nothing more than just that.

I agree, in part now that I think about it, that as "present" or the "this actual moment" may be the more true nomenclature of time, it doesn’t satisfy the need in our short lives for beginning and destination (if hopeful). Manipulation, Referencing, and Perception (both group / individual) are interesting go-arounds about 'time' . . . real time wasters, lol .

Linear timelines are only another perspectives, circular and chaotic (mathematics) are a couple of others.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by EarthBound

Linear timelines are only another perspectives, circular and chaotic (mathematics) are a couple of others.

i agree... and all we have to work with are our own perceptions, which is fine and well, and does not mean we can not make conclusions based upon them... but it can be useful from time to time to question those very perceptions

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i agree... and all we have to work with are our own perceptions, which is fine and well, and does not mean we can not make conclusions based upon them... but it can be useful from time to time to question those very perceptions

Ooh, can we talk about Kant now?

[Lizra]

Kant! Is he related to Karl?

[inked]

NO! BoP! You can't
talk about Kant
or even cant
as in a rant!
NO! BoP, no pant
Or pants you can't
nor even rant!

[Elfhelm]

but...

We want, we want
to speak of Kant! :;

[Rían]

Kant and Hume
were in a room
With a poet -

How did they get there?
Will they exist there?
We'll never know it!


(sorry, long day - field trip with 6 kids in the car! )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Brownie, do you relate closest with Buddhism or another religion and why?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Brownie, do you relate closest with Buddhism or another religion and why?

i like the teachings of many religions, western christianity included... many, if not most, of the core values of all the world's major religions are the same... they just have a different way of getting there... along with many specific cultural rules and regulations

that said, i tend to like buddhism because it centers on the self... salvation does not come from worship, or from external forces... it comes from finding peace within yourself

of course, there are christian sects that basically follow this train of thought... while there are buddhist ones that have a tendency to "deify" buddha himself... which takes away from the words as i see it

i guess that is my main reason for being rather ecclectic... i have no "faith", and am arrogant enough to say "if a moral stance is truely good for society, you best be able to prove why in everyday terms"