01-09-2004, 05:49 PM | #841 |
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i agree that creationism can be used to explain how things came to be in our world, and is just as valid as any other theory... my point is that it is not a very productive theory
one of the things that makes a scientific theory useful is it's ability to predict the future... studying things like asteroids and dinosaurs helps us to forsee what may happen in this planet's future... just saying that these sort of things are "acts of god", implies that you might as well give up, because they can not be predicted i assume you could look to the book of revelations... but it's a little to vague to make any real conclusions at different points in history science hits walls and theorizes... then facts later prove them right or wrong... many things that were considered works of the divine 2000 years ago are pretty well understood these days, others are not... some choose to call this remaining unknown divine, some choose to keep pushing the envelope and see how much farther we can go... either approach is fine and they do not have to necessarily threaten one another
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01-09-2004, 08:28 PM | #842 | |
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There are many posts to back this up, on this thread, and the other one.
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01-09-2004, 08:37 PM | #843 | ||
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On that note I would like to address the absurd notion that creationism and the ToE are "both theories." The Theory of Evolution is a hypothesis that has been consistently supported by subsequent scientific findings and for which no verifiable disproving facts have been found. Creationism is a theory like, "The moon is made of green cheese" is a theory. I have searched the Internet and I've read every post here and in all the other related threads and there is not one indication that there are any facts supporting this "theory of creation" (it's really a poorly formed hypothesis, or group of hypotheses since there are contradictory versions of it). Creationism, far from being a serious attempt to explain life in naturalistic terms, us really just a political movement designed to explain the bible in naturalistic terms to serve as a strategic attack on the teaching of evolution in science in public schools. In this too, it has failed; being confined to a minority of parochial schools and some home schoolers.
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01-09-2004, 08:41 PM | #844 |
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Thank you Cirdan. I am tired of that assumption too. We need to get back to the facts here.
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01-09-2004, 09:43 PM | #845 | |
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Equivocation seems to be the rage in this debate. They are both theories or they are both just beliefs. A vain attemt to simplify the complex concepts involved (at least in trying to comprehend evolutionary science, since creationism just tends to be anti-evolution) that just muddy the waters.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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01-09-2004, 10:48 PM | #846 | ||||||||||
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RĂ*an, I'm reading your summary posts right now (the ones with the link from the first page). Obviously you put a lot of effort into them! Thanks, I'm sure everyone who read them appreciated them - I am.
I have a few questions/comments about the evidence parts: from Evidence area 1 - Fossil Evidence (part 1) Quote:
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However, I don't see how this disproves Evolutionism, rather, it fails to support it in some areas. There is other supporting evidence for evolutionary processes, such as Darwin's observations on birds in the Galapagos islands. Conversely, I don't think flaws in the fossil record proves or supports Creationism, merely, it does not disprove the theory. Also, I'm sure Evolutionists acknowledge the gaps in the fossil record as well. Therefore, just because it is not there does not mean it never existed according to their theory. There are probably many fossilized one-celled organisms, but I doubt we could easily find any. from Evidence area 2 - The Nature of Change (part 1) Quote:
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In addition, random mutations occur all the time. I believe somebody already brought this up recently, but beneficial mutations could have been useless one generation ago, and now are extremely useful in the current generation. This gives all the creatures with this mutation an advantage over other members of its species, and it can procreate more often and/or succesfully, which increases the amount that this gene appears in the species. If the environment is such that this mutation is absolutely essential, everyone without it will die, and the species will have evolved to have the new gene. Why is it mind-boggling to believe this? It's a perfectly reasonable theory. Quote:
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(continued) Edit: You can post after, I'm just saying I'll continue it later.
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01-10-2004, 07:00 PM | #847 | |||||||
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BTW, you claimed at one point that I couldn't get outside my bubble, or something like that. You're quite wrong Let's look at the evidence - you claimed that a creator force would be beyond our comprehension. I asked if you meant "meaningful comprehension", and you seemed to be OK with that, IIRC. So then I took your statement, I assumed it was true (please note how I stepped outside my beliefs), I thought about it, and pondered what the logical implications would be, and I made 2 logical deductions from it, which I have yet to see disproved. Now when I made a statement, what do you do? You just continue to repeat that I'm wrong, IYO. You never step outside of your beliefs, assume my statement is true, and analyze it, like I did with your statement. IMO, so far you have NOT stepped outside of your beliefs, and I have.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 01-10-2004 at 07:04 PM. |
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01-10-2004, 07:18 PM | #848 | ||||
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What do you think of my comments RĂ*an? I should have read your post summary when I first joined the thread - it's great. I did read several posts about it though. I'm looking forward to your answer.
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01-10-2004, 07:23 PM | #849 | |||||||||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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01-10-2004, 07:25 PM | #850 | |
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I'm reading thru your comments, Nurvi, but won't be able to get into a lot of detail at this point in time Sorry!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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01-10-2004, 07:35 PM | #851 | ||||
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We're on at the same time, I hope I don't cross posts with you. What does "IIRC" stand for? A lot of people use this abbreviation. Take as much time as you want to answer, I did ask a lot of things. I'll still be interested.
You make some very good points for a "slap-dash" response. Anyway, I'll just comment on one thing. Edit: okay, two things. Quote:
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This does give rise to the question, according to Creationist theories, how exactly did the newer and sometimes more complex animals come to Earth? If we take humans as an example, we have observed in a quite reasonable fossil and anthropological (tools, burials, etc.) records the evolution of a very basic, ape-like person to the humans of today. 40 000 years ago, a fairly socially complex human emerged from Africa and migrated to Europe and Asia, reaching North America 12 000 years ago, and South America 10 000 years ago. This is after having dwelt in Africa as users of tools for about 2 million years. Is the Creationist theory exactly like Adam and Eve?
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01-10-2004, 07:40 PM | #852 | ||
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[quote]A mutation is a deviation from the normal, and is not inherently negative. Of course I wouldn't stand in front of an X-ray unprotected, but X-ray's do not cause natural levels or types of mutations (as far as I know), and is therefore not a good example. [/qutoe]X-rays can cause mutations. And of the mutations that are NOT neutral (i.e., the ones we notice), 99.9% are clearly negative, and the other .1% are debatable, as far as being called beneficial. Again, the evolutionists seem to argue from "well, it COULD have happened", instead of "this is what we see". ANd that seems extremely weak to me. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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01-10-2004, 07:51 PM | #853 | ||
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Negative mutations don't wipe out an entire species, becuase the individual who is carrying it usually doesn't get the chance to pass on its genes because
a) they die early - infant mortality, being eaten, or dying younger than natural b) they are outcompeted for a mate Therefore, negative mutations do not accumulate, they die out. Beneficial mutations, do the exact opposite of what I listed above. This gives the animal an edge, and they are more likely to pass their genes on. The gene will also benefit their offspring, and so on, and this is how the benefit accumulates.
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01-10-2004, 07:55 PM | #854 | ||||||
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But I imagine a few people here would disagree The problem with creationism is that if it is true, the implications are REALLY uncomfortable ... we are actually accountable to someone for our actions ... with evolutionism, you're not. But then again, creationism says that we're incredibly valuable and beautifully designed beings, while a logical deduction from evolutionism is that we're either of no worth, or of the same worth as, say, a worm And our souls say that this is not true. That's why we like books like LOTR.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 01-10-2004 at 07:58 PM. |
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01-10-2004, 08:20 PM | #855 | |||
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1) We are not special or of no worth. All creatures have value, we just don't perceive the value of a worm. Perhaps it is arrogant of us humans to feel that we are the most important. 2) We are not accountable for our actions. Why would you or I not be accountable for what we do, just because we evolved from "simpler" primates? My whole Creator-Guided Evolutionism theory is very Darwinian, but it does incorportate the Creator, which is key to everything, IMO. (Thanks for your IIRC definition, BTW. ) Anyway, I'll stop posting in this thread until you have time. I don't really have any time either, I just have a poor sense of priorities, and difficult tasks to avoid. PM me when you want to fully resume our discussion.
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01-10-2004, 08:26 PM | #856 | ||||||||||
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Insidious: Allow me to give you an example of what I mean. Of course you aren’t supposed to take this LITERALLY but its meant to describe what Im saying in a language that is easier to picture. Rian: well since your example isn’t me therefore its not true. *smiie * *smilie * And all that counts is that god says that god is god and therefore god made us to look just like him! *smilie * *smilie * This is exactly why I was saying we cant really discuss this issue because you default to the “that’s outside Christian thinking therefore is wrong” mentality which is impenetrable closed circuit thinking. Quote:
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BTW, you claimed at one point that I couldn't get outside my bubble, or something like that. You're quite wrong Let's look at the evidence - you claimed that a creator force would be beyond our comprehension. I asked if you meant "meaningful comprehension", and you seemed to be OK with that, IIRC. So then I took your statement, I assumed it was true (please note how I stepped outside my beliefs), I thought about it, and pondered what the logical implications would be, and I made 2 logical deductions from it, which I have yet to see disproved.[/b][/quote] which I immediately responded to with a third much more plausible and more obvious deduction. Which is basically what we are talking about here. Which you replied to with nope! Not an option! Sorry! *fingers in ears * Quote:
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01-10-2004, 10:45 PM | #857 |
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I agree, this topic has become a waste of time. Rian, you really aren't debating fairly, and I certainly haven't read any real "evidence" for Creationism either. Thanks to Blackheart for his efforts, and IR, your patience is impressive!
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01-11-2004, 04:14 AM | #858 | ||
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Though maybe some of the evidence is suspect, I think RĂ*an's posts are thoughtful and interesting. I did make comments on the parts I felt didn't quite hold up - what do you think about them (in my previous post) Lizra and IR?
When you're debating an important issue, you will bring out only those points which support your argument. Plus, since you believe this thing, of course your argument is biased. Everyone does this to varying degrees. That being said RĂ*an, I think that sometimes you would benefit from thinking on your points from outside of a Christian perspective. Right now, from within a Christian perspective, you have logical, intelligent posts. I suggest looking at evidence for Creationism from just your logical, intelligent perspective, and leave your Christian one aside for a moment. I think this would strengthen your argument further. I'm not intending to gang up on you, I think everyone would benefit from this. I am not completely sure what my perspective is, but I think I look at the world from outside it a lot. I think everyone would benefit from this mind excercise. Give a supporting argument for the theory which you do not believe. For myself, that would be Creationism. I think a good supporting argument, and one we should remember, is that there isn't anything that disproves it (as far as I know). A theory does not have to be completely scientific to be valid. Science cannot explain the origins of the Universe, that is where Creationism comes in. (That's the best part of Creationism IMO.)
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01-11-2004, 10:44 AM | #859 | |
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01-11-2004, 04:07 PM | #860 |
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If that's what you believe, IR, then you have less concept of what creationism is than even I would have suspected.
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