The Official US President Election Thread

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

Also on the ballot in 11 states was a referendum to ban gay marriage (amendment to state constitution): Oregon, Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Ohio and Utah.

I wasnt going to say anything about this but since you brought it up...

I found this the most disgusting part of the whole evening. I can handle Bush riding some moralistic wave to a 51% majority but for the open display of intolerance we saw by NOT ONLY BANNING gay marriage in 11 states but ALSO banning CIVIL UNIONS and DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS in most of the states! thats unconscionable! Basically they rolled back equal rights to people based on their sexual persuasion. And you wonder why america can re-elect someone like Bush? Frankly I consider this essentially fascist. Im pretty pissed about that. The one consolation is that most of these will immediately find serious challenges in court considering how draconian many of the provisions were. In some corners they are already becoming known as the WE HATE GAYS referendums. Now honestly, if you disagree with gay marriage on a religious basis but have great "compassion and love" for gays then HOW can you lump yourself happily together with bigots and homophobes who strip normal civil and personal rights that gays have already held for some time? Its truly sad.

[Mercutio]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I found this the most disgusting part of the whole evening. I can handle Bush riding some moralistic wave to a 51% majority but for the open display of intolerance we saw by NOT ONLY BANNING gay marriage in 11 states but ALSO banning CIVIL UNIONS and DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS in most of the states! thats unconscionable! Basically they rolled back equal rights to people based on their sexual persuasion. And you wonder why america can re-elect someone like Bush? Frankly I consider this essentially fascist. Im pretty pissed about that. The one consolation is that most of these will immediately find serious challenges in court considering how draconian many of the provisions were. In some corners they are already becoming known as the WE HATE GAYS referendums. Now honestly, if you disagree with gay marriage on a religious basis but have great "compassion and love" for gays then HOW can you lump yourself happily together with bigots and homophobes who strip normal civil and personal rights that gays have already held for some time? Its truly sad.

Because some laws protecting rights were in place previously doesn't mean that those laws were correct (this goes in any case; take Prohibition as an example). Just because I am compassionate and loving to gays themselves does not mean I let anything slide regarding their sexuality slide. I'm proud to lump myself with those people you referred to as "bigots" and "homophobes" (I might pick different words, though ) I believe that the only rights gays have are those administered to every other U.S. citizen (These rights only because they are U.S. citizens, not rights based on their gay-ness). No special protection. No marriage or civil unions between them.

Fascist? They are as much a person as I am (and equal to me). They get the same rights I have. I can legally marry someone of the opposite sex. So can they. I cannot legally marry someone of the same sex. Neither can they (in most states, that is).

Anyway, back to the U.S. Presidential Election. Some commentators this morning mentioned an unusually big turnout of young conservatives. And ... um ... I hope Bush will feel less pressured by some of his supporters and big companies and things and do more this term since he won't be up for reelection. He doesn't need to keep things slow and moderate anymore to make lots of groups happy. Sorry Dems! Hmm...I think this needs a smiley of some kind but none of them seem to fit, lol.

[Ñólendil]

Right.

*listens*

"I'm compassionate and loving to black people. They deserve all the rights of every other U.S citizen (These rights only because they are u.s. citizens, not because of their blackness)."

*waxes out his ears* Hmm. I hear funny things, sometimes.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I wasnt going to say anything about this but since you brought it up...

I found this the most disgusting part of the whole evening. I can handle Bush riding some moralistic wave to a 51% majority but for the open display of intolerance we saw by NOT ONLY BANNING gay marriage in 11 states but ALSO banning CIVIL UNIONS and DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS in most of the states! thats unconscionable! Basically they rolled back equal rights to people based on their sexual persuasion. And you wonder why america can re-elect someone like Bush? Frankly I consider this essentially fascist. Im pretty pissed about that. The one consolation is that most of these will immediately find serious challenges in court considering how draconian many of the provisions were. In some corners they are already becoming known as the WE HATE GAYS referendums. Now honestly, if you disagree with gay marriage on a religious basis but have great "compassion and love" for gays then HOW can you lump yourself happily together with bigots and homophobes who strip normal civil and personal rights that gays have already held for some time? Its truly sad.

Bush had nothing to do with that - those were states who put those thigns on the ballot and voted on them. It's a STATE issue and it is NOT the same as being a bigot or homophobe by banning gay marriage. I disagree with the banning of civil unions - but again - that's a state issue. As for them being called the "We Hate Gays" referendum - that's just usual liberal hyperbole.

[jerseydevil]

Sun-Star - I got the book Chruchill: A Life by Martin Gilbert tonight. It's over 1,000 pages.

[inked]

Golly Gee, Mr Ed, we are all for voting if it goes our way! But did you see what happened in 11 states. They affirmed marriage as between the sexes!!Now even though we all think voting and majorities are just fine when we like the results we can turn right around and say its all wrong when we don't like the results! Let's try to get some judge to subvert the will of the overwhelming majorities in those states 'cuz we's knowz bestis forn all.

Hey, whiners, what has this got to do with the Presidential Election? JD has shown the light of STATE'S RIGHTS on the issue. Take it to the GAy and LEsbi thread.

PS Do you still think democracy is great or what?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by inked

JD has shown the light of STATE'S RIGHTS on the issue.

I think everyone here basically knows what a big state rights person I am - from the electoral college to keeping laws and the majority of government at the state and local level. It's one of my concerns with Bush's second term and I hope I don't have to worry about it - I think that mostly everything should be left up to the states - from abortion, to stem cell research, to medical marijuana - to yes - same sex marriages. I think the federal government should not interfere with the rights of the states. That is what the founding fathers built this country on - the rights of the states.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Sun-Star - I got the book Chruchill: A Life by Martin Gilbert tonight. It's over 1,000 pages.

Sounds good - have fun reading! Might take you a while to get through though

[Ælfwine]

Four more years?

Be afraid. Be very afraid!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I wasnt going to say anything about this but since you brought it up...

I found this the most disgusting part of the whole evening. I can handle Bush riding some moralistic wave to a 51% majority but for the open display of intolerance we saw by NOT ONLY BANNING gay marriage in 11 states but ALSO banning CIVIL UNIONS and DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS in most of the states! thats unconscionable! Basically they rolled back equal rights to people based on their sexual persuasion. And you wonder why america can re-elect someone like Bush? Frankly I consider this essentially fascist. Im pretty pissed about that. The one consolation is that most of these will immediately find serious challenges in court considering how draconian many of the provisions were. In some corners they are already becoming known as the WE HATE GAYS referendums. Now honestly, if you disagree with gay marriage on a religious basis but have great "compassion and love" for gays then HOW can you lump yourself happily together with bigots and homophobes who strip normal civil and personal rights that gays have already held for some time? Its truly sad.

That's one way of looking at it. Here's another, for what it's worth:

The people in those states simply decided that they wanted the definition of marriage to remain 'one man and one woman' as it has consistently been in our society.

Now - maybe your opinion is different, and maybe you'd like to go changing people's minds on it. If so, I suggest against using lawyers and judges... that will hardly endear you further to the people you're trying to reach. You may also wish to closely examine your rhetoric and your opinions of those people... I would guess that you'll have very little luck 'reaching' them with a speech like that you've just given.

Hmmm... in effect, that mirrors for me the very way the Democrats have gone about losing the electorate in 2004...

[Nurvingiel]

Perhaps we should take this debate... over to the "Gays, lesbians, bisexuals" thread.

It seems it can't be said enough that... the rights of a minority should not be determined by the majority. (I elaborated further in that thread with respect to gay marriage.)

[EarthBound]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Where do you get the information that he "cheated"? Bush won completely on the constitution. The popular vote does NOT matter in the US - the only thing that matters is the electoral college. Based on the end of your post - I am hoping you are only using the word "cheated" because that is what many of his opponents used to say.

Quick reminder for all of us. Sometimes we forget our name. The United States of America. We are a Republic of individual States. The Electoral College is in place to protect the individual state's sovereignty. Think of it as the 50 states electing a president, with the state's number of Sentors/Representives equaling the number of electoral votes. To consider a large majority vote in the stead of a "state vote" is to take away your states power/ sovereignty.

I want to work in DC within the next few years, I may not always agree with the direction/policy of the capitol, but I love the system. I hate injustice, dispassionate politics, and partisan mud-slinging so I'll have to have thick skin!

[jerseydevil]

Okay IR - YOu may be right. Colin Powell may be stepping down according to CNN. I wish he wouldn't. It was possible - but I would like to see Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice stay on.

Ashcroft seems to be the main person who is stepping down, but Bush is supposedly going to make an announcement shortly.

[jerseydevil]

Just as a sort of trivia thing - Bush was not the only president to win the electoral college and lose the popular vote. There were a total of 4 presidents who this happened to.

John Quincy Adams - 1824
Rutherford B Hayes - 1876
Benjamin Harrison - 1888
George W Bush - 2000


George Bush however was the ONLY one to win a second term.

John Quincy Adams is also interesting because he has another thing in common with Bush - he's the only other person to follow his father into the White House.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

John Quincy Adams is also interesting because he has another thing in common with Bush - he's the only other person to follow his father into the White House.

Are you sure? I thought Benjamin Harrison was the son of William Henry Harrison. He was a close relation, anyway. WHH was the one who didn't wear a hat at his inauguration and literally caught the death of pneumonia - so I think he had the shortest term in office.

I once visited the Harrison family home in Indiana (Evansville I think... but maybe Terre Haute) - it's called 'Grouseland' - which is funny since it sounds kinda like 'Graceland'!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Are you sure? I thought Benjamin Harrison was the son of William Henry Harrison. He was a close relation, anyway. WHH was the one who didn't wear a hat at his inauguration and literally caught the death of pneumonia - so I think he had the shortest term in office.

I once visited the Harrison family home in Indiana (Evansville I think... but maybe Terre Haute) - it's called 'Grouseland' - which is funny since it sounds kinda like 'Graceland'!

I'm going by what was said during the 2000 election. I do not think that the two Harrison's were father and son - just like the two Roosevelts weren't.

[Valandil]

I checked and you're right. Benjamin was the grandson of William Henry.

In case anyone thought I was jivin' about 'Grouseland', here's a link:

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomfr...ndation.org%2F

The correct town was Vincennes, Indiana... it's on the Wabash River, between the southern parts of Illinois and Indiana.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I checked and you're right. Benjamin was the grandson of William Henry.

You question my knowledge of US Government? Didn't you try that once before and fail?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

You question my knowledge of US Government? Didn't you try that once before and fail?

Oh... you'll slip up ONE of these days!!

[Valandil]

In a sad twist, I just heard news that John Edwards' wife has been diagnosed with breast cancer.