Capturing Tolkien's Vision vs. A Literal Interpretation

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I rather agree about wanting others to read it. (though I must say BB doesn't, all he cares about is that they watch the movies. They're better than the dumb ole books anyhow! )

But we do not disagree with you for the sake of it. We disagree with you because we have different views. Please try to understand, not everything revolves around you.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I would like to welcome Curufinwe and applaud his contributions to this thread. You've made quite a number of dead-on points. I'm impressed. You're my new hero!

Well at least you have ONE hero on this board now.

But I would advise you not to get frustrated when these wild-eyed Purists don't understand you. The problem is that you are trying to engage in a LOGICAL debate. It's clear you haven't had much experience with Tolkien Purists.

Actually it's you who doesnt' understand how someone can hate the films yet be satisfied if they weren't a verbatim copy from the book. But that's because it seems as if you're too narrow minded to understand what I"m saying.

Case in point: jerseydevil. The guy tells you in one breath that he wasn't asking for a literal, page by page, interpretation of the story. Then in the next breath, he's telling you how the movie was ruined because of... why? ....(drumroll)... Jackson's way of using the campfire on Weathertop!

Sorry if you don't understand the difference between need to change a story for length - versus making meaningless changes.

[azalea]

Everyone, a friendly reminder: please be considerate in your posts. Don't use words or phrases that are rude towards another person. I had to edit a couple of posts, and I hate to do that. Argue away if you want to keep it up, but watch yourselves -- I'd appreciate that.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
Everyone, a friendly reminder: please be considerate in your posts. Don't use words or phrases that are rude towards another person. I had to edit a couple of posts, and I hate to do that. Argue away if you want to keep it up, but watch yourselves -- I'd appreciate that.

That's okay Azalea - they got to read how I felt in the end.

[Earniel]

But I would advise you not to get frustrated when these wild-eyed Purists don't understand you. The problem is that you are trying to engage in a LOGICAL debate. It's clear you haven't had much experience with Tolkien Purists.

I'd say it takes one to know one. If those who posted here and hate the movie can't debate logically, than the same goes for you. Understanding does not equal immediate agreement. Sorry if it offends you. But you can't expect a decent debate if you're constantly belittling Tolkien purists. Never heard about rule one in a intelligent debate? Attack the arguments not the people. Otherwise we'll end up giving poor Az a big headache here....

[Black Breathalizer]

When the so-called Purists here bury their heads in the sand and ignore the massive, worldwide critical and commerical success of PJ's films and say things like "the movies are losing steam...many people I know don't plan to see ROTK because the first two were so bad", do you expect me and others to say that's logical?

Let's get real here.

Granted, many of the issues raised here are subjective and open to various interpretations. But Purists who want to be taken seriously here need to get serious themselves. Questioning the "true" popularity of movies that have made 1.7 billion dollars from the theatrical releases alone, truly strains their creditability.

We also have amble evidence of the classic Purist Catch-22.
1. Purist says: I'm not asking for a literal translation. Honest.
2. Purist offers character dialogue, moments, and book-to-film plot deviations that RUIN the movies.
3. It is pointed out to Purist that if his concerns were addressed to his satisfaction....low and behold...we would have a literal translation of Tolkien's books.
4. (Recycle back to No. 1)

[Lizra]

Let's combine this thread, and the Evolution one and put them in a virtual hamster wheel. Label the new thread "Circular Hell for those who have nothing better to do."

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lizra
Let's combine this thread, and the Evolution one and put them in a virtual hamster wheel. Label the new thread "Circular Hell for those who have nothing better to do."

lol!. I had the exact same analogy running through my head about the evo. thread the other day. Same applies here. What the hell is "vision" anyway? Seems to equate to themes, apparently.

*listens to annoying squeak-squeak sound*

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by Lizra
Let's combine this thread, and the Evolution one and put them in a virtual hamster wheel. Label the new thread "Circular Hell for those who have nothing better to do."

Hear hear!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Cirdan
lol!. I had the exact same analogy running through my head about the evo. thread the other day. Same applies here. What the hell is "vision" anyway? Seems to equate to themes, apparently.

Quite so. Tolkien didn't write a collection of themes. He didn't make a message. He created a STORY. The themes are not what Lord of the Rings is about, but the story is.

[azalea]

If I were to summarize LotR, this is how it would go:
Frodo Baggins, a hobbit of the Shire, inherits Bag End from Bilbo, along with the One Ring. Gandalf the wizard sends Frodo to Bree with the Ring, because it is clear to them that it cannot be hidden there, and something must be done about it. While Frodo and his servant Sam journey to Bree, joined by hobbits Merry and Pippin, Gandalf rides to Isengard, home of Saruman the White Wizard, to consult with him about what must be done, since he is the head of the order of wizards. While in Isengard, Gandalf discovers that Saruman has turned from the side of Good, and is imprisoned by him in the tower when he refuses to join with him.
Meanwhile, the hobbits, after having several adventures, arrive in Bree to discover that Gandalf is not there to meet them as promised. They meet Strider, a Ranger, who tells them he is a friend of Gandalf, assists the hobbits by guiding them to Rivendell, where he knows the Ring will be safe from the Dark forces for a time. On the way, Frodo receives a wound from one of the Nazgul, agents of the Dark Lord Sauron, who is seeking to regain the One Ring.
In Rivendell, Frodo recovers from his wound, but we find that he will never fully heal from it. Gandalf has escaped from Orthanc with the help of his friend the eagle Gwaihir. In Rivendell, a council is held, at which members of each of three races of Middle Earth -- the elves, dwarves, and men -- tell their stories and try to decide what should be done about the Ring. It must be destroyed, but it will be a next to impossible task, and the mighty may not attempt it due to the risk of corruption by the Ring. The wearer risks being enticed to use the Ring, and would inevitably turn toward evil ends, and then be faced with contesting Sauron, who will risk all to regain the Ring to turn ME into his dominion. Finally, Frodo volunteers to take it, and along with eight companions (Gandalf; Strider, who we know come to know as Aragorn, heir to the throne of the land of Gondor; Legolas the elf; Gimli the dwarf; Boromir, son of the Steward of Gondor; and the three other hobbits), he sets out from Rivendell on the long and perilous journey to Mordor, the only place where the Ring may be destroyed.
After attempting to cross the mountains to the east and almost perishing, the company enters Moria, the ancient realm of dwarves. On the journey they discover that Moria has been overrun by orcs, and all the dwarves have been killed. After battling the orcs themselves, the company barely escapes Moria due to a Balrog, an ancient demon, who has awakened. Gandalf battles the Balrog and in the process they both fall from the bridge into the abyss. The company must exit Moria without Gandalf and continue on to Lothlorien, realm of the elves Galadriel and Celeborn. Galadriel is a very powerful elf, and there the members of the company are able to rest and rejuvinate. Galadriel reveals herself to Frodo as the keeper of one of the three Elf Rings of Power.
We continue to see that Frodo is increasingly feeling the evil effects of the One Ring.
The Fellowship leaves Lorien and travels down the Great River. Aragorn has assumed the leadership role in Gandalf's stead, and tries to lead the company as he believes Gandalf would have. They are constantly trying to avoid all forces of evil, who are working to take the Ring back to Sauron, and also they are pursued by Gollum, the creature who possessed the Ring before Bilbo found it many years ago and wants to possess it again. Boromir desires that the Ring be brought to Gondor to aid in its battle against Mordor, the forces of which are moving against it, as well as the other free realms of ME. But Aragorn knows the Ring must be destroyed in Mordor, as per Gandalf's council. While the Fellowship stops to rest, Frodo asks to have time to himself to ponder the decision of which path to take -- the one to Gondor or to Mordor. While he is thinking, Boromir confronts him and tries to take the Ring. Frodo escapes, and realizes that he must go on alone to Mordor to destroy the Ring, lest the Ring fall into the wrong hands. As he sets off alone, Sam discovers him and insists on accompanying him.
Meanwhile, orcs have beset the rest of the Fellowship. After a terrible battle, Boromir is killed defending Merry and Pippin, who despite that are taken away by the orcs. After the other three discover that Frodo and Sam have set off on their own, Aragorn leads Legolas and Gimli in pusuit of the orcs to try to save Merry and Pippin.
(end of Fellowship portion -- continued on next post)
(edit I took something out and changed a couple of words)

[azalea]

After sending Boromir down the river on a funeral raft, the three pursuers are led to the land of Rohan, having concluded that the orcs are taking Merry and Pippin to Isengard, which lies beyond. By this time it has been guessed that Saruman desires the Ring for himself.
Merry and Pippin in the meantime are alive, and manage to escape from the orcs into Fangorn Forest. There they meet Treebeard, an ent, who takes care of them. As they converse with Treebeard, it becomes clear that Saruman must be stopped, the ents being especially concerned because Saruman has been destroying the forest.
We discover that Gandalf is alive and more powerful than before his battle with the Balrog. He takes Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to the King of Rohan, in hopes of getting him to battle Saruman lest Rohan be defeated by him. The king, Theoden, leads his army to Helm's Deep, where they are attacked by the forces of Isengard. With the help of the ents, Rohan is victorious. The ents march on Isengard and destroy all that Saruman has built with the waters of the River Isen. Gandalf leads a company from Helm's Deep to Isengard, which includes Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Theoden. They meet up with the two hobbits, and then Gandalf confronts Saruman, who has been stripped of his power. During the confrontation, Wormtongue, a traitor from Rohan, formerly the King's advisor, throws out of a window of Orthanc, a palantir, an object with the power to see things far away. Pippin retrieves it and gives it to Gandalf. But he desires to use the palantir, so he secretly takes it and looks into it. Sauron himself looks back at him through it. Gandalf finds him and hurries with him to Gondor, because he knows Sauron will send the Nazgul to get Pippin, who he thinks is the hobbit who has the Ring.
Meanwhile, Frodo and Sam are trying to make their way to the land of Mordor. Gollum, who has continued his pursuit, tries to attack them to get the Ring, but they are prepared and overcome him. Frodo decides not to kill him, but to use him as a guide. They discover that it would be impossible to enter Mordor throught the front gate, but Gollum tells them he will lead them in through a back way. On the way there, they encounter Faramir and his men, who are helping to hold Gondor against the evil forces that beset it. Faramir is the younger brother of Boromir, and the hobbits learn from him of Boromir's death. Faramir, upon hearing of Boromir's fall to the temptation of the Ring, decides to allow the hobbits to resume their journey to destroy the Ring. After capturing Gollum, Faramir and his men allow him to go with the hobbits as their guide once more. However, Gollum feels betrayed by Frodo's part in the capture after his faithful service to him. He leads them through a passage at the border of Mordor, but in the passage lies a giant spider, very powerful, who tries to capture and devour the hobbits. Samwise defeats the spider, but thinks that Frodo has been killed. He then takes the Ring in hopes of destroying it himself, but then decides that he must go back to Frodo. When he does, he discovers by overhearing some orcs that Frodo is actually "alive, but taken by the enemy."

(Good stuff, eh? )
Continued on next post...
(edit I changed a couple of words)

[azalea]

So if I look back at my summary, I can see that all of the main points of the story have been included in Jackson's movie, with some differences that I'll address:
My summary goes in a slightly different order at times (as in when background info is revealed, and the like).
I too found that I skipped over The Old Forest and Bombadil. I LOVED those parts in the book, and if I had done the movie I would have found a way to include them if I could, but in my summary, I found those parts skippable.
I ended up not even mentioning Arwen at all. I would have included her in a movie, but not to the same extent as PJ did.
A noteable difference -- Frodo is given the choice to decide whether or not they will go to Mordor or Gondor, whereas in the movie Aragorn makes the decision himself. Also, of course, everyone in the movie knows Frodo is leaving, whereas in the book they only find out later. But the main point here is that THEY LEAVE. The changes J makes are unecessary, but minor enough that they do not affect the plot.
The Treebeard stuff is noteably different in my summary. I am hoping that we'll get some satisfaction in the EE, but I certainly would have included more of the it in the main movie. This episode stretches the limits of change in the movie, but in the end we have the ents destroying Isengard, and Rohan victorious. Notice how my summary says nothing of Eowyn at this point? Hmm, interesting. But think about it, the whole releasing Theoden from Saruman's influence scene has but one goal (main plot-wise) -- to get him off his keister and into battle with Saruman's forces. Again, I personally would have done it all MUCH differently, but we get the same end result.
Likewise, the Faramir incident (one of my main disappointments with TTT) plays out differently in my summary, but in the end we still get Faramir letting Frodo, Sam and Gollum go on their way.
Since the last 3 or four chapters of each book in TTT has been moved to the next film, we can't make a comparison of them yet, but I really hope he includes a lot of what I had in my summary (Pippin and the palantir, etc.). I think what I wrote about were the important main points of the story, but even deviations from that are passable if we still come to the same conclusion in each episode that has been included.
I think based on my summary, PJ did in fact tell the story of The Lord of the Rings in his movies thus far, despite omissions, changes, and unnecessary additions. I loved the movies, and I'm sure I'll also love RotK, after being irked by whatever changes he makes.
(edit -- clarification)

[Black Breathalizer]

Thanks, azalea. Great summary and thoughts.

By the way, when will the EE versions of your last three posts come out?

[Ruinel]

Some of us are enjoying chasing our tails. If you do not like running around in circles, get off the Merry-Go-Round. Posting at this thread is optional.

[Ruinel]

[i]Case in point: jerseydevil. The guy tells you in one breath that he wasn't asking for a literal, page by page, interpretation of the story. Then in the next breath, he's telling you how the movie was ruined because of... why? ....(drumroll)... Jackson's way of using the campfire on Weathertop!

Thanks, jerseydevil. Your arguements always crack me up! [/B]

Did you NOT read the book? Hello!?

[Black Breathalizer]

I'm checking in while spending a couple of relaxing, Purist whining-free, weeks on the warm, sunny beaches of North Carolina...

This morning's USA Today had an article about a sneak peek at the TTT Extended DVD. It reported the extended version has a great deal more of Faramir, Boromir and introduces Denethor. The writer of the article mentions the extended version puts Faramir's behavior in the TTT theatrical release in a different light. As I predicted last January, I suspect that the extend DVD of TTT and the ROTK film will give all of you Faramir naysayers out there a different tune to sing.

See you later...

(You see a dark hooded Ringwraith wearing swimming trunks and carrying a beachball leave the internet cafe and head off towards the beach.)

[Elf Girl]

You know BB, if you don't like 'Purist whining', you could leave the board, or at least the thread. This is where the purists whine. Live with it. I don't like Britney Spears, but I don't run around their forums trashing her.

[Black Breathalizer]

That's the problem with you purists, you take EVERYTHING so darn literally. Please notice the smiley face after my "whining" comment.

I'm sticking around this board because after the TTT Extended DVD and the ROTK threatrical release and Extended DVD, I want to be here when you Purists sheepishly admit that you were dead wrong about these films.

[Lizra]

I've been watching TTT more, and it's beginning to grow on me. If I could just stay awake through the whole thing though! Watching movies after the kids FINALLY go to bed is rough! They really need that "Smeagol/Deagol in the boat" flashback in there when Frodo calls him Smeagol for the first time. I wish they would just cut some battle scenes and eliminate the action oriented theatrical release. I prefer the extended editions with more Middle Earth "lore".