04-23-2002, 09:02 AM | #841 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Biblical inconsistencies:
In Aduril's bible: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. In my bible: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the Lord do all these things. Editorial license??? Now why would anyone change the immutable text of the bible? Thanks for the title, Afro-Elf. I shall do my best to cover the lands with lava and rend the ground with terrible shaking to smite the un-unbelievers! Don't forget JerseyDevil's title. Lord of Scathing Dialog. The anti-spin doctor, perhaps. *Bwah-bwah, bwah-bwah, bwah, bang, bang, bang*
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
04-23-2002, 09:06 AM | #842 |
the Shrike
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<nanu nanu>
And being the Godess of the People, aka of the Stinky Feet, my first act will be to cause all the infidels to suddenly be silenced, as if there was a great disturbance in the force... as if a thousand foots stopped smelling, all at once.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
04-23-2002, 09:14 AM | #843 |
The Original Corruptor
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The variations in translation must be seen as a dilemma for God, surely. We must ask the question: would God have wanted the world to have varying translations of "His Word" in existence, which would promote an additional element of misinterpretation (additional to that caused by the vague, metaphorical/literal confusion, and arbitrarily non-applicable nonsensical dream-speech)? No. I can't see any way for that to be compatible with his will.
Therefore, if it was not his will that caused the varying translations, whose will was it? Man's. The randomness of Man has caused the Bible to have more than one translation. This was an obvious thing that would happen, if something like "free will" was connected to the translating and scribing of documents. Did God know this? Yes. He is omniscient. He knew before he created the universe that Cirdan (and many, many others) would note the comparitive differences between Bibles. But he went and inspired the first one anyway... Last edited by Andúril : 04-23-2002 at 09:18 AM. |
04-23-2002, 09:16 AM | #844 |
Elven Warrior
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Don't just look at one section without taking into acount the rest of the Bible. There are other places stating that for any temptation to happen by Satan, God has to allow it. 1 Corinthians 10:13 And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. That shows God's direct control over temptations. Satan is powerless without God giving permission to do something. Look at the begining of Job. Satan couldn't toutch Job until God gives permission.
The direct cause is that Satan is causes the temptation for David. The cause behind that is that God needed to allow for that to happen. It isn't an inacuracy because that is what happens. Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it inacurate. Why would God want unhindered free will? He didn't create us and then just set us free to live completaly independant of him. He wants us to choose to have a relationship with him. He does things to aid us into that. That is why he allowed for Satan to implant the idea into David. He knew that David would eventually see what he did, and that is where the free will exsists. David can choose to repent and draw closer to God, or to turn his back and continue on sinning.
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04-23-2002, 09:34 AM | #845 | ||||
The Original Corruptor
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Quote:
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. Unfortunately, there is absolutely zero mention of Satan in the text, and zero mention of temptation. The majority of your last reply is directed at explaining temptation, for no reason applicable to this discussion. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Andúril : 04-23-2002 at 04:09 PM. |
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04-23-2002, 09:46 AM | #846 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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The point of the biblical reference was no the silliness of the content, but the alteration of the text by man to change the impression of the text.
Oh, God's worderful gift of "free will". This is a favorite. Why, if we have free will, are we constrained by heredity and environment? Why was I born with cancer? Sin or mucked up DNA? Yes, I am the product of genetic mutation. I was saved by science in the form of doctors. The obvious theist response would be that the doctors were created by god or working on HIS behalf, yadda, yadda, yadda. Why the did he not give them the sophisticated tools that exist today? Instead they blasted me with radiation until I was golden brown; this left my body to grow deformed and twisted. I bear the brunt of any sin that I was born with. I'd take three days on a cross over decades of continuous pain. Ask those little Ethiopian babies, staving and covered with flies, what was their sin.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
04-23-2002, 09:52 AM | #847 |
The Original Corruptor
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AE, make that:
Anduril : Lord of the Logical Assault (Destroyer of non-sequitur statements, a priori declarations, and nonsensical ad hoc fallacies (+ all those who make them)). Huzzah! |
04-23-2002, 09:56 AM | #848 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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On the new testatment:
Why was it written way after Christ died? Why was the "son of god" illiterate? Surely this skill would have been easier to aquire than the healing of lepers. Would he have been considered an elitist or academic posing by sophistry as the messiah? The stories of the birth and the resurrection are considered by some theologians to be "allegorical", sionce they were not directly attributed to christ in his teachings. A very good lesson here; always good to document your your work to avoid confusion and plagarism. Those palestinians that are holed up in bethlehem; the church is built on the site of christ's birthplace... IN A CAVE??? Were did that come from? Christ was a caveman? Away in a cave, no club for his mamoth...
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 04-23-2002 at 10:06 AM. |
04-23-2002, 10:13 AM | #849 | ||
Hoplite Nomad
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Quote:
and mirrile the goddess of subtle defense Quote:
lol
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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04-23-2002, 10:20 AM | #850 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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Quote:
what DO you DO ? Cirdan shocking revelations. That bit of info really kind of hit me. IF you don't wanna answer no problem. Was it only your skin that was affected. You use the word body to grow deformed and twisted. My heart felt sympathy to you
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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04-23-2002, 10:26 AM | #851 | |
the Shrike
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Quote:
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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04-23-2002, 10:32 AM | #852 |
The Original Corruptor
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AE, I'm an information technologist....
...which is a glorified label for a network administrator, specialist IT support, type person. I administer a network. Of 150 pcs. Life sucks. But end-users suck even more... |
04-23-2002, 10:38 AM | #853 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
I want to be clear that my illnesses have nothing to do with my religious beliefs, or lack thereof. I went through periods of believing deeply, but the rational mind won out over the mystical and irrational. Surviving an almost certain death gives one much more freedom from the fear of death. Only this aspect of my illness may effect my beliefs. Most people, as they get closer to the end of life, become more religious due to the fear of death. I am on the "free game" of life!
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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04-23-2002, 10:39 AM | #854 |
Elven Warrior
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Temptation is relevent. That is another place where free will comes into place. David is only tempted into taking the census. It is his free will to actually go ahead and do it, even thogh he knows that God doesn't want it to happen. That is why temptation is relevant. It is his decision to sin, which is why it is temptation.
Yes, the Lord did incite David to do it. Putting the two scriptures together, God and Satan both had a role in inciting David into taking the census. Inciting is differant from forcing. The choise is still Davids to make. God wants for David to make the right choise. He knows what will happen though. Just because he knows what will happen doesn't mean that the choise isn't David's to make. The two acounts aren't contradictory. They have to be looked at together, not just taking one and saying that is everything. They tell the whole story when put together. Both God and Satan are involved with the tempting process. I don't think my thoughts on free will are fully put together, so I won't argue on that. Another believer can pick up on my weak areas.
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04-23-2002, 10:47 AM | #855 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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04-23-2002, 10:47 AM | #856 |
Hoplite Nomad
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Cirdan what is your age?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
04-23-2002, 10:49 AM | #857 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
43 *oof.. Cirdan sits again* edit: Yes we mustn't forget mirrelle goddess of concise brevity. damn typos!
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 04-23-2002 at 10:54 AM. |
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04-23-2002, 11:15 AM | #858 | ||||
The Original Corruptor
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Quote:
Temptation is an action. Provocation is an action. Moving is an action. I don't care about the action itself - I am interested in the identify performing the action. If you say that Satan tempted David (in Chronicles), then why do you not say that God tempted David (in Samuel)? It is a contradiction one way or the other. One account does not have more information than the other, one account does not claim more than the other - BUT they cannot both be true. Either it was God, or it was Satan. Quote:
Just take another look. This is the last time I will post the verses: 1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. If you insist on bringing up temptation, then you must conclude that in Chronicles it was Satan who tempted David, and in Samuel it was God who tempted David. Still contradictory. Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Andúril : 04-23-2002 at 12:20 PM. |
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04-23-2002, 12:17 PM | #859 |
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The fact is Anduril, that there are contradictions in the Bible that can't be explained. No one is denying that. But the flip side is that your scientific methods are far from error-free.
Maybe I am a simpleton, but I need not know the indentity of what temps me - that is uneccessary hair-splitting. God uses sin to strengthen us and teach us of our own sinful ways - and how great the glory of redemption is through him (as Twilight so eloquently said). The explanation is that God (whom is omnipotent, and at times wrathful) allows Satan to temp us and use painful experiences to grow and to learn. Why wouldn't an omnipotent creator also be wrathful or want to us to prove our mettle? In the end, it is how we handle such tests (not who they come from) that is important. Also, the anti-theists seem so angry that god could allow such suffering and darkness in the world. But taking such suffering at face value misses the point that it can all be resolved in a manner more beautiful than you can imagine. This is where the faith part of the equation enters (and that is where we may forever be divided): that an omnipotent creator has a plan, and even though said suffering is horrible and greiving, it is part of a plan that is greater than we as humans can imagine. Nature's complexity has already proved baffling to us, why then do you strive against understaning the mind of a holy, imnipotent being? The simple fact is we can't - nor can we ever hope to. Through science we can, in whatever small way, continue to learnn the hows of the small rock we live on, but it will never tell us the whys emplynx is right, your are very bright and intellectual, and these debates are great excercise for the mind and spirit - thank you for that! I don't have my sources for the Bible's historical accuracy with me at the moment, I will post them later. The fact that you deny the Bible's accuracy seriously brings into question your own historical knowledge. And that I will continue to doubt until you see my sources (who are from times both ancient, and modern), and can unequivocally disprove them. regards, - Lelond
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- Lelond, your friendly neighborhood Adan Last edited by Lelondul : 04-23-2002 at 12:56 PM. |
04-23-2002, 12:30 PM | #860 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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An excellent example of subjective and flawed logic leading to a flawed subjective truth. But, this one is Anduril's to slice and dice.
*sails away in fabulous elven ship...* Hey, it's in a book!
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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