02-20-2007, 01:07 AM | #841 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Isn't it just awful? I spent some fourty minutes copying and pasting and replying, and for what? One thing I do remember I wanted to say, though, is this to Count Comfect re: the Missouri Synod's position on Catholicism. Saying that the Papacy is the Anti-Christ does not necessitate saying that the Catholic Church is not Christian; please note the following excerpt from their website: Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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02-20-2007, 01:25 AM | #842 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm really not clear on what they're saying. Are they saying Akinola and other conservative bishops might split, or are they talking about the whole communion? Are these "radical proposals" in the first paragraph the same as the urging of exploration of ways to promote unity with Rome in the third? As usual, the secular media bungles their portrayal of religious issues, and consequently I don't know what to think. My roommate, who is an Anglican, and the son of an Anglican priest, says he thinks the Times doesn't know what they are talking about, and that this just came out of no where. It wouldn't surprise me a bit. In my opinion, it would be absolutely fantastic if this were to actually happen; I'm just not going to get my hopes up, and until I see reliable evidence, will chalk it up to bad media.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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02-20-2007, 07:13 AM | #843 | |
Word Santa Claus
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But thanks for the link.
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02-20-2007, 12:24 PM | #844 | |
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Maybe the Anglican/Episcopal split helped move this forward....who knows.
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02-20-2007, 02:30 PM | #845 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-20-2007, 03:00 PM | #846 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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I interpret the Bible literally all the time, except sometimes when the Lord is speaking, and especially when he's speaking through visions or dreams. It's obvious from the text that visions and dreams aren't always meant to be interpreted literally. But the information that's presented as historical, I tend to accept on face value. And if it seems initially repugnant to me, I research it more carefully to learn more about what it means and whether or not it really is barbaric or bad at all. I also examine carefully my own natural values to find out if they are in line with what the Bible is saying. If they aren't, I'm more likely to be wrong in my natural values than the Bible is, for it is eternal and I am finite. All humans make mistakes and often value errors, so I can't trust myself and expect the Bible to fit fully with my natural standards. That would be making myself God. Rather, my sole standard must be God's standard. If something in the Bible that God approves seems immoral or wrong, I pray, seek the counsel of wiser Christians than myself and more information, and most importantly, listen to the voice of God answering me. God validates his own word and proves it moral, in all the places where his Word might seem immoral to us. I feel an approach where we choose to interpret some parts as literal and other parts as metaphorical winds up being us choosing for ourselves what we want to believe. Which I think is about the same as us making up our own religion . I know that that sounds harsh, and I guess it is. I just don't see a logical way of escaping that. Quote:
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Free Will is basically random chance. For according to that belief, God didn't pick us up out of the rat cage, but rather he just opened his hand and said, "anyone who wants to come aboard can come aboard." Which means he was leaving it to random chance who would come to heaven and who would not. That, to me, is not the act of a very loving God. By the predestination standpoint, however, God reached down into the rat cage and picked up the one he wanted with him, so that it would be with him forever. Which is a kind and loving act that shows real caring about the creature's future. You suggest that the predestination standpoint means we are under bondage. However, we have as much freedom as God does. We have the freedom to act according to the natures and personalities that God gave us. We cannot act in any way outside of our own personalities and natures. The same is true of God. He can act only according to his own nature, according to his own personality. Perhaps all of God's actions are eternally predestined, for he does only what is within his personality for him to do and can do no other. This is the same for us. Here is a vitally important point to understand: God does not impose upon our personalities. Have you ever read the Harry Potter books? In those books, there is a curse that the bad wizards use on some good wizards to get complete control over them, so that they behave in exactly the ways that the bad characters want them to behave. People can become puppets on strings when controlled by this curse. They have no personalities, no free will, nothing. Compare them to the "free" characters of the Harry Potter books. Those characters are full of vibrancy, with their own personalities, their own wills. Yet J.K. Rowling controls them. Nonetheless, there is a significant difference between them and the cursed characters. The ones that J.K. Rowling controls act according to their own personalities and their own natures. They are themselves, and Rowling does not impose herself upon them (usually ), whereas the others are not themselves. The characters in J.K. Rowling's book have their own personalities and natures, just as J.K. Rowling does, and have the same freedom within the book as Rowling has outside the book. They have the freedom to be themselves, just as Rowling does, and no "freedom" to be other than themselves, to act according to someone else's personality, for instance. The main difference between Rowling and the people she has created in her book is that she has life, whereas they don't. This is a point at which my analogy falls short, for book characters don't have life, but God can give life to people. Authors and readers can love characters in books and gain strong emotional attachments to them. These characters are not real people, yet even without reality, they still can create that attachment in us and be considered precious. How much more, then, would real, living creatures that God has created and predestined be precious and valuable? Now, I cannot act like my brother for the rest of my life, no matter how much "free choice" one might suspect that I have. I'm bound to be myself. And even if I chose to attempt to be like my brother all my life, that choice would be coming from my personality, which means I'm still being myself. All the freedom that any of us have is the freedom to be ourselves, and predestination does not hinder that. The Imperius Curse in Harry Potter may be capable of taking away free will, and so can sin. But predestination does not. Sin is what keeps us from acting according to our own personalities, for it imposes evil upon us. We therefore must act in evil ways, when under the power of sin, even though we may not want to. We find ourselves bound to it. Not one person alive can choose through force of will to do what is right all the time. That is because sin enslaves. Quote:
I have some issues though, with this. Some people in the course of human history have genuinely believed that blacks were subhuman, and thought it an act of kindness, of empathy, that they should experience Western control over their lives. Anti-Semitism comes from the interaction of human beings with one another, and might be considered to be empathy with one's fellows, though not the Jews, who were not fellows but rather were evil. In fact, from the perspective of a number of Anti-Semites, killing Jews and mistreating them was doing good and being kind to one's fellow people against those who were just manifestations of evil. Most people who have done what are now considered to be atrocious wrongs have believed that they are doing right, and even often done it out of empathy with their fellows from their nation/race/religion/economic position, etc. Many even out of empathy with humanity as a whole, as they don't consider those they are attacking to be "human." I believe the same thing is happening today through abortion in civilized West, except on a larger scale than ever before in history. Many other crimes have been committed, but the important point is that many of them involve people doing what they believe is right. Empathy is not always involved, of course. But these interactions of humanity must be considered to be part of the total sum of human experience, and indeed one so endemic in our experience that the 20th century had in it the two World Wars, the bloodiest conflicts in history. The most recent of those took place only about sixty years ago, and it was immediately followed by the Cold War, the most terrifying event for humanity, with the greatest risks to survival, of all time. Yet the governments decided, because of mutually assured destruction, not to launch that war. Mutually assured destruction is no longer a barrier to holocaust, however. For now it's terrorism, small groups of fanatics who want to use WMDs against vast numbers of people. These WMDs are becoming more and more easy to come by. Humanity's total experience is partly magical and beautiful, I agree. But it also has a lot of great blackness and ugliness. That ugliness often causes people to doubt that there is meaning. Quote:
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But about utilitarianism . . . are you saying that no one has ever gotten away with a crime? Or that no one has ever gotten away with any big crimes? You told me in another thread that even if individuals might sometimes get away with it, the society they live in may crumble. But who cares? Since individuals can get away with it, even where their society pays the penalty, why shouldn't they get away with it? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-20-2007, 04:24 PM | #847 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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02-20-2007, 04:37 PM | #848 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Wow. Just wow.
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All in all, you have a little god. |
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02-20-2007, 06:05 PM | #849 | ||||
Elf Lord
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But let's be careful not to mix terms. I didn't say that the Bible is 100% literal. Here was my stated position: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-20-2007, 06:45 PM | #850 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Now on the matter of those other "rats" you refer to, I'd first of all say that I don't believe they are eternally tortured. There is only one verse in the Bible that explicitly says that, and it is in Revelation, a vision. I could get more into that verse, if I wanted, as I've already done earlier in this thread. The other passages refer to eternal fire and eternal destruction, which are different concepts from eternal torture. There is a passage of the Bible that says body and soul are destroyed in hell, and I believe that. The spirit is what lives and is eternally tormented, and it involves the ideas and beliefs of people, all that they stood for. Hitler is being "eternally tortured" in that he is disagraced and his name is written in infamy. I believe that the damned will be annihilated. Now, since we're going by Christian Biblical theology, we're assuming that God is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful. A god of such infinite qualities is well positioned to determine whether it is good and worthwhile to create people on a temporary basis for temporary purposes and then eliminate them. He might make some for glory and others for what Paul calls "common purposes." He, as maker of creatures and the one who decides where they go, and with infinite qualities that make him a rightful Judge, is well placed to know better than us how he is to deal with people and what their fates should be. If you cannot understand God's will, that doesn't make it unjust. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-20-2007, 07:15 PM | #851 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Lief, I just want to say I'll never be the giant you are in this subject, so keep posting, my good friend!
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02-21-2007, 03:54 AM | #852 |
Elf Lord
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You're very kind. I very, very much appreciate that comment .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-21-2007 at 03:59 AM. |
02-21-2007, 08:48 AM | #853 | |
Elf Lord
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Last edited by Butterbeer : 02-21-2007 at 08:51 AM. Reason: italics don't grow on trees. (it's the angle ... they slip off) |
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02-21-2007, 11:19 AM | #854 | ||||||||||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Got to run, late for class.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 02-21-2007 at 11:22 AM. |
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02-22-2007, 11:31 AM | #855 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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The whole post was rushed, but I don't have any time to 'improve' upon it these days.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 02-22-2007 at 11:33 AM. |
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02-22-2007, 03:33 PM | #856 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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02-22-2007, 03:46 PM | #857 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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02-22-2007, 07:27 PM | #858 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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totally OT, but I gotta say, Falagar, I love that Aikanáro ref in your siggy!
Now back to the thread topic ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-23-2007, 04:55 AM | #859 | |||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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I don't know enough about the supposed changes in John to comment on them, as yet. Would you care to elaborate on your contentions regarding those parts of the Bible? Quote:
But, if the last part of the last chapter of Mark wasn't in the original, you might be right about that intention. My own suspicion is that, if it wasn't in the original, the other author may have just wanted to finish up the respected manuscript for tidiness's sake. It should end with the resurrection and perhaps ascension of Jesus, after having had such a lead-in, he may have felt. But, even if Mark wasn't the author of that part, we don't actually know what the intention was and it doesn't have much relevance anyway, since the doctrines there are stated and restated in so many other places. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-23-2007 at 05:00 AM. |
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02-23-2007, 06:07 AM | #860 | |||||||
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For a harmless example, literal interpretation would include believing the world is roughly 6000 year old. Dangerously, literal interpretation would include believing that women must submit to men in marriage. Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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