REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins

i realize it's a somewhat idealic pov... but one has to start somewhere

all that being said... many religions hold truths that are in alignment to those of western society at large, or are relatively harmless if they are not... the main problem is when religious truths conflict with the idea of a democratic and free society

I think it's a perfectly rational pov... for someone who does not subscribe to a particular faith. I only hope my pov comes off as equally rational for someone who does subscribe to a particular faith.

GrayMouser, I'm not trying to ignore your post, I'm... pondering it. Frankly, I'm at a loss for how best to respond. It doesn't exactly shake my faith, but I'm not sure I can carry the ball on this one. Maybe Rian or Lief Erikson can do you justice... they seem a bit more clear-headed than I feel most times. If they don't, I'll keep thinking on it and give it a whirl later.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
To Jews, he's simply the most popular of many False Messiahs;

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought Jesus was regarded in Judaism as a prophet? (What you said implies they think of him in a negative light. I doubt that, but I don't know much about Judaism.)

[Drgnslyer]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I dont think he was saying hes an active member of every world religion. I believe his point was that he feels that there is a thread of truth that joins ALL religions but that goes well beyond the specific details of the religions. Im of the opinion that spirituality is something thats IN us as a species but that we cant really grasp it in a rational way so we lay a vail over the unseeable and embrace that covering as the Truth. When in fact its just an artificial man made covering on something invisible and profound. In essence religions are reflections of that unatainable spirituality that weve struggled with for the past 100,000 years or so. We desperately need to flesh out the unknown and tacking on lots of little details onto the unknown is how we make ourselves comfortable. the vail allows us to dress up what we cant see directly. In some cases the "dressing up" is simple and plain while in some cases its arnate and elaborate. some religions (or philosophies) treat it as symbolic and are in touch with the concept of the uncharted depth of spirituality while some religions are very rigid and have evolved to the point where the symbol has become the truth in the eyes of its followers. this can be dangerous of course because when the esoteric is defined as the Ultimate and the Only then all other interpretations of the esoteric are heresey. and this leads to conflict, intollerance and strife. Yes religions are different but when it comes down to it theres many underlying commonalities between them. And THIS is probably wear true spirituality lies. In that nether world beyond comprehension but still within our sensing.

Anyway I got off on a tangent there.... Just saying thats how I interpreted what he said. But Ill shut up and let him speak for himself.

You pretty much nailed it on the head there Insidious.

Now be openminded as you look at this, this will be an angle on religion that many of you have never really looked at before...

In christianity you have god, the one, omnipresent, all powerful, and in laymans terms simply the guy at the top.

One level down you have the archangels, entities such as michael...and fallen archangels, such as Lucifer*satan or the devil*.

One level down from that you have the regular angels, and aparently when armageddon comes the soldiers of god.

Look at another religion like Witchcraft.*again, on the surface polar opposites, but when you break it down, very similar*

In witchcraft you have what is simply called 'the one'. This entity is beyond comprehension, and again is omipresent and all powerful...again in laymans terms, the guy at the top.

One level down in witchcraft you now have the goddess and the god.

*herein lies another...qualm i guess you could say...but i'll leave that for another post and stay on topic here*

The goddess is everpresent in the night, her main symbol is the moon.

The god is everpresent in the day, his main symbol is the sun.

Below that you have the elementals, much like angels they are powerful yet not commanding entities, and if need be, they would be the spiritual soldiers.

In all religions, regardless of which one, you have the god, you have demi-gods *or in christianity, archangels, simply a different name for the same thing* and you have powerful spiritual entities.

Like I said, it's a view that you have to keep yourself openminded to truly grasp, I realize that many people who firmly believe in their own religion and believe that any other religion is simply boiled down to herecy will see this as an unfounded comparism. So be it, this is simply my own observation... something that i have found to trancent all religions and has been a common link throughout all.

If I had the ability, I would instantly combine all religions into one true, and unified conciousness...however different cultures have different interpretations on spirituality, and one consistent, perfect religious structure will not come around any time soon.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
Now be openminded as you look at this, this will be an angle on religion that many of you have never really looked at before...

:

Like I said, it's a view that you have to keep yourself openminded to truly grasp, I realize that many people who firmly believe in their own religion and believe that any other religion is simply boiled down to herecy will see this as an unfounded comparism. So be it, this is simply my own observation... something that i have found to trancent all religions and has been a common link throughout all.

If I had the ability, I would instantly combine all religions into one true, and unified conciousness...however different cultures have different interpretations on spirituality, and one consistent, perfect religious structure will not come around any time soon.

It's not a novel thought to note hierarchichal structures in various religions. As for your final statement, about 'combining all religions'... does that come down to a quest for truth, or a quest for compromise?

[Drgnslyer]

Originally posted by Valandil
It's not a novel thought to note hierarchichal structures in various religions. As for your final statement, about 'combining all religions'... does that come down to a quest for truth, or a quest for compromise?

It's always been a quest for truth, to know how things really are beyond any veils or compromises we may have made in the past in order to make religion and spirituality work for us.

[Beor]

You cant have one religion, it wont work. You cant have a compromise either, too many different opinions. The spirituality does work, if you have faith. That is what most religions seem to be about, am i right? There is no quantifiable proof that any one religion is the right one, or even that any are right at all, so what are you trying to get at? People cant even agree on what to put on a pizza, so what is the point of unifying all religions? Pretty soon, you would have little breakoffs here and there, and it would all fall apart.

By the way, sorry to chime in , just had to get my two cents in .

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
It's not a novel thought to note hierarchichal structures in various religions. As for your final statement, about 'combining all religions'... does that come down to a quest for truth, or a quest for compromise?

i'd be happy enough with just a compromise or two... or just drop the whole thing entirely and concentrate on the here and now... mankind, something we can see, and hopefully learn to understand

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i'd be happy enough with just a compromise or two... or just drop the whole thing entirely and concentrate on the here and now... mankind, something we can see, and hopefully learn to understand

But it becomes quite problematic to expect those who firmly believe something to just 'drop' those beliefs. Communism tried it and things got quite messy.

I'm quite content with believing as I do, and peacefully trying to defend my beliefs and convince others of their validity... is THIS an acceptable alternative?

[Beruthiel's cat]

Originally posted by Beor
You cant have one religion, it wont work. You cant have a compromise either, too many different opinions. The spirituality does work, if you have faith. That is what most religions seem to be about, am i right? There is no quantifiable proof that any one religion is the right one, or even that any are right at all, so what are you trying to get at? People cant even agree on what to put on a pizza, so what is the point of unifying all religions? Pretty soon, you would have little breakoffs here and there, and it would all fall apart.

By the way, sorry to chime in , just had to get my two cents in .

I have to agree with your position that there will never be one religion. People are too disparate -- as you say, Beor, they can't even agree what to put on their pizza. To find a unified system of belief would be impossible.

IMO, this is because of the whole "fall" thing -- the choice made back at Eden to have free will. Free will can be a very good thing, but it is by nature also very divisive because my decisions are individual things -- motivated by my experiences. They will never be the same as anyone else's.

So it is with religion. My boyfriend (who is not religious) cannot understand why there is so much disagreement within Christian churches. He thinks all Protestant denominations are the same somehow, and just doesn't see why they can't agree on things.

I was brought up in the Lutheran church, which can't agree on anything with itself. There are many branches of Lutheranism, some as the result of national/ethnic differences (Swedes vs. Germans, etc), and some just because one group enterprets scripture one way (and that's how Luther would see it, by gum!) and another group sees it another way. Needless to say, my boyfriend finds this ludicrous. I find it hysterically funny.

Bottom line -- heaven is a very big place and there's room for diversity. If you enjoy arguing about angels dancing on pinheads, enjoy your counting. I'll see you when you get there!

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
I'm quite content with believing as I do, and peacefully trying to defend my beliefs and convince others of their validity... is THIS an acceptable alternative?

of course it's acceptable... you might say i'm just the devil's advocate, in the classic sense of the phrase

communism didn't work because they supplanted the state for religion... and nationalism has all the same issues of exclusivity... they also tried to change things too quickly

if i do nothing more than show a few people that you can lead a good life without religion, i'll be happy

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i'd be happy enough with just a compromise or two... or just drop the whole thing entirely and concentrate on the here and now... mankind, something we can see, and hopefully learn to understand

Here, here!

Compromise #1: let me live my religion and you may live yours.
Compromise #2: do not impose restrictions upon my religion and I will not impose restrictions upon yours. IOW, don't make laws that tell me what your bible says is a "marriage", because this word has many meanings to many different people.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Compromise #2: do not impose restrictions upon my religion and I will not impose restrictions upon yours. IOW, don't make laws that tell me what your bible says is a "marriage", because this word has many meanings to many different people.

You should believe what you want to believe, and it's very legitimic; and I'm not saying it's somehow wrong - but that there's only one Bible, and it says, I believe, specically how a marriage should be like and for who. You might come and say that it does not fit the modern life. But the religion of most of the people in the US (about 85%) says that this is forbidden - and the government decided to makes laws on the basis of the religion; like don't murder, don't steal, etc. and this is one of them. (although the two cases are different... but you get my point)

[brownjenkins]

i'll spare you quotes from our founding fathers... but they specifically chose to make laws not based upon religion... sure many laws coincide... but many do not... even some of the ten commandments

we are a country based upon civil law

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i'll spare you quotes from our founding fathers... but they specifically chose to make laws not based upon religion... sure many laws coincide... but many do not... even some of the ten commandments

we are a country based upon civil law

Sing it, Brother BJ!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
You should believe what you want to believe, and it's very legitimic; and I'm not saying it's somehow wrong - but that there's only one Bible, and it says, I believe, specically how a marriage should be like and for who. You might come and say that it does not fit the modern life. But the religion of most of the people in the US (about 85%) says that this is forbidden - and the government decided to makes laws on the basis of the religion; like don't murder, don't steal, etc. and this is one of them. (although the two cases are different... but you get my point)

My compromises will allow you to believe that there is only one bible, and that there is only one god. In fact, you will be free NOT to worship Jesus the son of your god, under my compromise. In fact, if you choose to circumsize your male infants, that will be allowed under my compromises, too. As well, as worshipping on Saturdays instead of Sundays. My compromise allows you to worship as your chosen religion allows you to, and does not force my (or anyone else's) religious laws upon you.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Sing it, Brother BJ!

thanks Runiel

how's the pup?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Beor
You cant have one religion, it wont work. You cant have a compromise either, too many different opinions. The spirituality does work, if you have faith. That is what most religions seem to be about, am i right? There is no quantifiable proof that any one religion is the right one, or even that any are right at all, so what are you trying to get at? People cant even agree on what to put on a pizza, so what is the point of unifying all religions? Pretty soon, you would have little breakoffs here and there, and it would all fall apart.

I agree that we couldn't have one belief system/religion, because religions are ultimately organized spirituality, and are about social structure and culture as much as anything. (It's how many people choose to worship, and there's nothing wrong with that.) However, that case can be made that the world's major religions are all ultimately accomplishing the same goal, even worshipping the same higher power. (Obviously we can't know that, but it's an interesting way to think about the world.) This thought is not intended to undermine the validity of any religion, but rather, strengthen the notion that we are one.

I think Drgn's interesting comparison outlines this type of view well.

By the way, sorry to chime in , just had to get my two cents in .

Don't apologize, everyone's two cents adds up to a great debate. And enough to order a pizza... now we just have to decide what to have on it.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

nothing which used to be alive, one would hope

nice cheese and tomata pizza

[Nurvingiel]

Cheese and tomatoe sounds delicious! What about extra cheese, or three types of cheese!

(Living organisms are needed to make cheese. I hope that's okay. What exactly are the dietary limitations of Buddhism? Just no meat? I'm just curious.)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

generally, no meat
obviously i include cheeses made with sheep rennet in that
but generally, i dont even have eggs and dairy, as i am vegan, how about a nice block of Soy Cheese, my favourite is the garlic and herb from my local healthfood shop