What people think of Two Towers (*SPOILERS*)

[olsonm]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As for the Osgiliath scene with the Nazgul - it still makes no sense - Sauron would have the other eight Nazgul there in a heartbeat. Frodo would never have been able to cross back over and make it back to Mordor.

What difference would having the other Nazgul there make? They're not invincible nor is their ability to detect the Ring's presence exact. If Frodo passes through the sewers and exits on the outskirts of East Osgilliath he should be able to avoid detection. Especially if it is assumed he is on the way to Minas Tirith.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by olsonm
What difference would having the other Nazgul there make? They're not invincible nor is their ability to detect the Ring's presence exact. If Frodo passes through the sewers and exits on the outskirts of East Osgilliath he should be able to avoid detection. Especially if it is assumed he is on the way to Minas Tirith.

They are exact enough when the Nazgul is two feet from the ring though. They were able to follow Frodo from the Shire to the Ford. So - Sauron would have sent all his Nazguls to Osgiliath to search for the Ring. After Flight to the Ford none of the Nazgul came near Frodo - except while they are flying high in the air - and even then they circle around to investigate because they could feel the Ring's presence. You're telling me with the Nazgul reaching out for the Ring and Frodo - that Sauron would not know that the Ring was there?

[olsonm]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They are exact enough when the Nazgul is two feet from the ring though. They were able to follow Frodo from the Shire to the Ford. So - Sauron would have sent all his Nazguls to Osgiliath to search for the Ring. After Flight to the Ford none of the Nazgul came near Frodo - except while they are flying high in the air - and even then they circle around to investigate because they could feel the Ring's presence. You're telling me with the Nazgul reaching out for the Ring and Frodo - that Sauron would not know that the Ring was there?

I don't see how this post relates to mine. I never said Sauron wouldn't know the Ring was there. I believe he does. After the Nazgul is chased off by Faramir it is no longer two feet away from Frodo, therefore it's (and the others) ability to re-locate Frodo would be reduced. There is no evidence that they ever got close to him again. It doesn't matter if Sauron knows the Ring is in Osgilliath if Frodo is no longer there. The most logical deduction from Sauron's point of view would be that the Gondorians have the Ring and are taking it to Minas Tirith. That misinterpretation would reduce the likelihood of Frodo being discovered in Eastern Ithilien as it would concentrate the search on Osgilliath and west to Minas Tirith.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by olsonm
I don't see how this post relates to mine. I never said Sauron wouldn't know the Ring was there. I believe he does. After the Nazgul is chased off by Faramir it is no longer two feet away from Frodo, therefore it's (and the others) ability to re-locate Frodo would be reduced. There is no evidence that they ever got close to him again. It doesn't matter if Sauron knows the Ring is in Osgilliath if Frodo is no longer there. The most logical deduction from Sauron's point of view would be that the Gondorians have the Ring and are taking it to Minas Tirith. That misinterpretation would reduce the likelihood of Frodo being discovered in Eastern Ithilien as it would concentrate the search on Osgilliath and west to Minas Tirith.

Fraodo couldn't just FLY out of Osgiliath - he would have had to walk out again. That means the nazgul had plenty of tiem to get to Osgiliath and search for him. With nine Nazgul it would make sense to have them sent and surround the area and search for the Ring. In the books - Sauron never knew at all where the Ring was - never once came close to it after Flight to the Ford.

[olsonm]

Fraodo couldn't just FLY out of Osgiliath - he would have had to walk out again.

Yes. He goes underground. The sewers would mask his scent.

That means the nazgul had plenty of tiem to get to Osgiliath and search for him. With nine Nazgul it would make sense to have them sent and surround the area and search for the Ring.

Nine Nazgul to search and surround an entire city? They can't sense his precise location at Bree or in the Dead Marshes but they can now pin-point him in a vast city? Unless the Nazgul know where the sewers let out and anticipate that Frodo will be using them to head east (why, when it would make more sense for him to go west) I don't see why the Nazgul would absolutely have to discover Frodo. I suppose they could have stumbled upon him, but they clearly didn't.

[cassiopeia]

Spoilers:

In the ROTK preview on the TTT DVD, Merry (if I remember correctly) tells Pippin that Sauron thinks he has the Ring. So it seems the Nazgul did not see Frodo holding out the Ring. I think there are some problems in this: if the Nazgul sense the Ring, why would Sauron believe the Ring is miles away near Isengard? (Unless Merry is mistaken).

[olsonm]

I haven't seen ROTK yet (odd isn't it? ) so I don't know if PJ will even address this issue. But it wouldn't be too difficult. 1: Pippin looks in the palantir; Sauron thinks he's in Isengard. 2. Gandalf takes him to Minas Tirith to keep him safe. 3. Faramir subsequently arrives at MT and gives his report to Denethor and Gandalf (as in the book) wherein he details his meeting with Frodo and their parting. 4. Gandalf asks when he last saw Frodo; Faramir says "A few days ago." That would be enough to indicate that Pippin looks in the Palantir *before* Frodo is spotted at Osgilliath, given that it would take Gandalf several days to reach MT from Edoras. This is one way PJ could handle it. But I don't know if he even will.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by olsonm
Yes. He goes underground. The sewers would mask his scent.
Nine Nazgul to search and surround an entire city? They can't sense his precise location at Bree or in the Dead Marshes but they can now pin-point him in a vast city? Unless the Nazgul know where the sewers let out and anticipate that Frodo will be using them to head east (why, when it would make more sense for him to go west) I don't see why the Nazgul would absolutely have to discover Frodo. I suppose they could have stumbled upon him, but they clearly didn't.

You seem to forget that power of the ring gets stronger the closer they get to Mordor - therefore the Nazgul were able to sense it more. Just like the were able to sense it - while flying high over head - while Frodo was trying to make his way. I believe with the Ring being so close to Mordor and and the nazguls basically KNOWING where it was - that they would have been able to find it. In the books - they had NO IDEA where it was. They never came into contact with Frodo or the Ring since the Flight to the Ford in the books.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Spoilers:

The Nazgul would sense the Ring two feet from them. Especially being so close to Mordor. If they can't - then they aren't as much of a danger at finding Frodo and the Ring as Tolkien indicates and destroys the entire book. The Nazgul are wimps then and aren't anythign to be afraid of if they can't even sense the Ring.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by olsonm

This seems a very difficult and complicated way of handling this problem, and I think the audience would assume the Nazgul saw Frodo at Osgiliath before Pippin looks into the Palantir, as the Nazgul sees Frodo a whole movie before Pippin gets hold of the Palantir. It seems much, much simpler if PJ just stuck with the book, but we can hope that it is (somehow) explained in the ROTK.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You seem to forget that power of the ring gets stronger the closer they get to Mordor - therefore the Nazgul were able to sense it more. Just like the were able to sense it - while flying high over head - while Frodo was trying to make his way. I believe with the Ring being so close to Mordor and and the nazguls basically KNOWING where it was - that they would have been able to find it. In the books - they had NO IDEA where it was. They never came into contact with Frodo or the Ring since the Flight to the Ford in the books.

They knew the Ring was in the Prancing Pony. It didn't help them find Frodo. I see no evidence that the increasing power of the Ring has increased the Ringwraiths ability to detect it, in either the book or the movie. The Ringwraith 'sensed' the Ring in the Dead Marshes in the book as well, but in neither case does it realize that it is sensing the Ring.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by cassiopeia

What's complicated about it? Most people won't notice any problem with the Osgilliath scene. Those that do can handle editorial exposition. There are no connections made between the various plot-threads to indicate when they coincide. This would be the only time and doesn't need to be pointed out. Of course there *isn't* a whole movie between the two scenes. It'll probably amount to about thirty minutes of screen time. Either way, I see no indication how this will be dealt with in the film, this is speculation.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by olsonm
They knew the Ring was in the Prancing Pony. It didn't help them find Frodo. I see no evidence that the increasing power of the Ring has increased the Ringwraiths ability to detect it, in either the book or the movie. The Ringwraith 'sensed' the Ring in the Dead Marshes in the book as well, but in neither case does it realize that it is sensing the Ring.

At no point in time in Bree did they SEE the ring or SEE frodo. It's entirely different, Frodo HELD the Ring out in front of the nazgul with them reaching out for Frodo and the Ring and you mean to tell me that the nazgul didn't know it was there?

The Dead Marshes =- how high in the air was the Nazgul? And how close was the Nazgul to Frodo and the Ring in Osgiliath. And contrary to your opinion - the Ring would attract the Nazguls the closer Frodo got to Mordor - IF they knew where to look. The last time the Nazgul see the Ring or Frodo directly - is at the Fords. At no time in the book does Frodo ever come into direct contact with them after that.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by olsonm

By the way - I can handle "editorial exposition" but what jackson did to the nazgul and their reaction to the Ring - completely goes against what Tolkien had said in the book. They would have KNOWN EXACTLY where it was when they came into contact with it at Osgiliath in the movie. Jackson needed another action scene - that is all. It does NOTHING to the plot.

[olsonm]

At no point in time in Bree did they SEE the ring or SEE frodo. It's entirely different, Frodo HELD the Ring out in front of the nazgul with them reaching out for Frodo and the Ring and you mean to tell me that the nazgul didn't know it was there?

When did I say that? I said that wraith did know the Ring was there. When are the wraiths in contact with Frodo after Faramir chases away the one in Osgilliath? Why would knowing Frodo's general location help them find him in a city, especially when he's no longer there and he goes off in an unexpected direction.

In the book a wraith lands a few feet away from Frodo after he escapes from the Tower of Cirith Ungol and doesn't know that the Ring is there. That's in Mordor.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by olsonm
When did I say that? I said that wraith did know the Ring was there.

The nazgul knew where abouts Frodo was - but they never came into direct contact like they did on the walls of Osgiliath and NO WHERE in the book did they ever come into contact like that in the book after the Ford.

When are the wraiths in contact with Frodo after Faramir chases away the one in Osgilliath? Why would knowing Frodo's general location help them find him in a city, especially when he's no longer there and he goes off in an unexpected direction.

I'm not going to put spoilers in for the book.

You are incorrect on your diescription of how close the nazgul was to Frodo and Sam in Mordor....

Out of the black sky there came dropping like a bolt a winged shape, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek.

Land of Shadow
....Down the road they (Frodo and Sam) fled. In fifty paces, with a swift bend round a jutting bastion of the cliff, it took them out of sight from the Tower. They had escaped for the moment. Cowering back against the rock they drew breath, and then clutched at their hearts. Perching now on the wall beside the ruined gate the Nazgul sent out its deadly cries. All the cliffs echoed.

Contrary to your statement in your spoiler - the Nazgul did NOT land only a "a few feet away from Frodo after he escapes from the Tower of Cirith Ungol". He never actually SEES Frodo - but senses the Ring.

In Osgiliath in the movie - the Nazgul is right in FRONT of Frodo with Frodo holding the Ring.

The wraith would first of all not even be chased that easily away from Osgiliath without the Ring. The only thing that kept them from searching beyond the Ford was because they were washed away and uncloacked.

[olsonm]

The nazgul knew where abouts Frodo was - but they never came into direct contact like they did on the walls of Osgiliath

Yes they did. The saw him at the Bucklebury Ferry and the certainly came into contact with him at Weathertop. It didn't help them find the Ring until they picked up his trail again after Arwen took him back on the road.

In Osgiliath in the movie - the Nazgul is right in FRONT of Frodo with Frodo holding the Ring.The wraith would first of all not even be chased that easily away from Osgiliath without the Ring. The only thing that kept them from searching beyond the Ford was because they were washed away and uncloacked.

His steed was nearly shot out from under him. On his own, being attacked he wouldn't have been able to obtain the Ring. He flys away to get re-enforcements, he loses contact with Frodo and can't know his exact location anymore.

Contrary to your statement in your spoiler - the Nazgul did NOT land only a "a few feet away from Frodo after he escapes from the Tower of Cirith Ungol". He never actually SEES Frodo - but senses the Ring.

Fifty paces is a few feet. That quote was to show that just because Frodo is in Mordor the wraiths aren't drawn directly to where the Ring. And because they lost contact with him at Osgilliath they no longer know his exact location. Nor would it make sense for them to assume he would then be heading for Mordor.

[olsonm]

I apologize JD, but I must go to bed now. However, this is a fascinating discussion and I hope to continue it tomorrow.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by olsonm
Yes they did. ...after Arwen took him back on the road.

O.o
... errrr... 'Arwen' takes him back on the road? errr... not in the BOOK. So, what are you talking about?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by olsonm
Yes they did. The saw him at the Bucklebury Ferry and the certainly came into contact with him at Weathertop. It didn't help them find the Ring until they picked up his trail again after Arwen took him back on the road.

First of all - Arwen only took him back to the road in the movie - not in the book. I never said that the nazgul never came into contact with Frodo - I said they never came into contact with him AFTER the Ford. As for Buckleberry Ferry - they were not right in front of Frodo. They missed Frodo. The only time they actually saw Frodo face to face in the books was at Weathertop and the Ford.

His steed was nearly shot out from under him. On his own, being attacked he wouldn't have been able to obtain the Ring. He flys away to get re-enforcements, he loses contact with Frodo and can't know his exact location anymore.

It wasn't shot out from under him - it was shot at. On the banks of Anduin before the Fellowship breaks up - that nazgul had it's flying stead shot from under it by Legolas.

Fifty paces is a few feet. That quote was to show that just because Frodo is in Mordor the wraiths aren't drawn directly to where the Ring. And because they lost contact with him at Osgilliath they no longer know his exact location. Nor would it make sense for them to assume he would then be heading for Mordor.

That was how far they ran and hid. But the wraith never actually SAW Frodo there. I also didn't say they are drawn directly to the ring - but it would make sense that since the Ring was two feet in front of the nazgul that it would have pretty good idea where the ring was at that time.

You can buy jackson's butchered up changes - I don't. The Nazguls in Jackson's movie are much weaker than they are in the book. For one thing - in the book they are psychologically frightening - not weapon wielding maruaders. Frodo would NEVER have attempted to give the Ring to the Nazgul - not would the Nazgul just fly away with the Ring in it's grasp.