Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

That's a very nice conclusion, RÃ*an. Thank you.

You're welcome It certainly comes from my heart, and also from my mind (I've thought a lot about these things over the years).

When Christianity is presented in the right light, I have to say I like it.

Good! I hope you keep thinking about it.

Be careful about making overgeneralisations... But I agree that while not perfect, it would be better.

I'm not saying that everyone would want to, or even be able to only have sex in marriage, but that IF they DID, then those things would happen, and this is a way to evaluate whether something might be from a creator God or not. Which do you think would NOT happen, and why?

That's nice. Unfortunately not true for all branches of Christianity, but nice.

If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about "branches of Christianity" - I would just go straight to the Bible (New Testament) and read it and ponder what it says and try to work whatever you find to be true and good into your life. And pray, too (which is just talking with God) - let Him know what you're thinking, and why, and ask Him to teach you what is right and true.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvi

Very interesting Ri, as usual (and logical, of course! )

[french accent]But of course! [/french accent]

Not to be a jerk and say that Jesus hasn't done anything for me,.(that is not what I'm saying) but my life hasn't been transformed by Jesus.

Why do you think that might be? One reason might be that God doesn't exist, but since you say you're a Christian, you don't believe that. So given that you're a Christian, and that many, many Christians talk about God's transforming power in their lives (including me), why do you think this might be?

Jesus has some influence on my life, but I wouldn't say He is really in it.

From your posts, I would have to agree with your evaluation. Do you want this to change? He is in my life, and I am blown away by His beauty and love. He can be in yours, if you want this.

Do you think He doesn't touch everybody's lives? Or is there a transformation waiting to happen if I just realize something first? (Or something like that.)

I think He touches everyone's life, yet doesn't force Himself into everyone's life. I think your previous statement about that He is not "really in it" explains why you don't see transformation in your life. When Jesus, who IS life and light and truth and love, is in a person's heart, they can't HELP but be transformed. And He just waits to be asked in - what an amazing God!

I think a good analogy is one Jesus Himself uses, in Revelation 3:20 :

from the Bible, Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Again - it's not "if any one hears My voice and opens the door, I will give him a nice set of rules and grade him periodically". It's a relationship that Jesus wants with people - He wants to be in our hearts, and have us in His great heart, because He loves us, and the rules are just for our healing and for the good of those around us.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm not saying that everyone would want to, or even be able to only have sex in marriage, but that IF they DID, then those things would happen, and this is a way to evaluate whether something might be from a creator God or not. Which do you think would NOT happen, and why?

Yes, I'm being picky, I admit it. I don't think that AIDS would just cease to exist. First of all there are more ways to contract it than just sex (though that is probably the easiest way), and something like disease doesn't care whether or not you're faithful in marriage... You can obviously contract it from a spouse as easily as from an illegitimate lover.

And of course, things like rape and abuse can happen inside marriage as well. Of course, if you were looking at more than just this single Commandment, that statement would not be an issue for me.

That's basically it, I think. Got to run to class now...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Yes, I'm being picky, I admit it. I don't think that AIDS would just cease to exist. First of all there are more ways to contract it than just sex (though that is probably the easiest way), and something like disease doesn't care whether or not you're faithful in marriage... You can obviously contract it from a spouse as easily as from an illegitimate lover.

I didn't say that AIDS would instantly disappear. But think about it - how could it NOT die out in a few generations if the only sexual contact was within marriage?

And of course, things like rape and abuse can happen inside marriage as well. Of course, if you were looking at more than just this single Commandment, that statement would not be an issue for me.

I should have been more clear that I was including the total picture of sex as God intended it, which means there would NOT be rape and abuse, even in a marriage But even if you take just the simplistic reading of "no adultery", then all those things I said would still show a huge, HUGE improvement in society, which illustrates my point very well, IMO.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownie, heir apparent to the very warmed-up hot seat!
accepting this for the moment, 'cause i really don't want to argue "studies"... will you conceed that one can have zero belief in god and still be an extremely good, thoughtful and caring person (even if it is less likely as you say the studies show)?

I don't have to concede it; I've already said it many times, IIRC. I certainly believe it!

There are some atheists that I would trust with my kids more than some Christians. And this is entirely consistent with logic and the Christian worldview, IMO.

The radical thing about Christianity is that becoming a Christian is NOT based on how "good" a person is! It's just based on a person realizing their very real, and good and right, need of the God who made them and loves them and designed them for fellowship with Him. It's just so cool to me that anyone - ANYONE - can turn to God at ANY TIME and from ANY CIRCUMSTANCES - and God opens His arms wide to them, and eagerly gathers them to His great heart. As Elfhelm pointed out, Jesus spent time with the "scum of the earth" people - and apparently liked His time with them a lot more than His time with most of the religious leaders! (hypocrisy stinks in any age ) The religion of the Jews had, long ago, turned to form and away from heart, and those who were drawn to legalism the most were also drawn to be leaders in this religion. As Jesus quoted from Isaiah, "This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me." Jesus had some scathing (and true) criticism of many of the religious leaders; I don't see that attitude when He talks to prostitutes, altho He is fully aware of what they have done and does not condone their actions.

Brownie, you're a VERY nice guy, as I've said many times here , and I like you a LOT, but frankly, what if you were in circumstances where you had no parents, no one that cared for you or taught you things that were good, you were regularly abused physically and mentally, and you had to rely on theft and deception, over and over, to even survive? I don't think you would appear to be such a "good" person anymore; I know I wouldn't. You're only responsible for what you DO with whatcha got. You can't choose the family or circumstances you were born into. And God, who is entirely fair and just, knows this.

I think Lewis is spot on when he observes that much of a "good" person's "goodness" is only due to his easy circumstances. I see a "bad" person, and think, "There am I, but for my easy circumstances." And IMO, Christ sees people the same way. And He demonstrated, over and over, that He loves ALL people, and has NO regard for how people classify other people. He sees their hearts. I think Jesus sees and honors our true attempts to do right. Yet He also sees and mourns over our sin - the sin that is in EVERYONE (including "good" and "nice" people) to some degree - and longs to forgive and heal us. And He can - if we let Him.

That's why transformation is so important. Your starting point doesn't really matter. WHEREVER a person starts when they have asked Jesus into their hearts, they will go up from there. There will be fits and starts, and dips back down as God works deep in their hearts and brings dark things to the light, and static periods as we sometimes wander, and then great leaps up; but the overall TREND will be one of positive transformation. And I think that God is more truly pleased, as I've said many times before, with a habitual liar who refrains from lying one time out of 100, than with me when I don't lie at ALL in 100 chances. And this is fair and right; I have had parents who showed me the beauty of truth, while a habitual liar most likely did NOT have this. Why should I get credit for something I didn't earn, and have no difficulty in avoiding? But God, in His tender mercy and love, knows the areas that I have difficulty in, and is so gentle and encouraging when I make my little baby steps, holding His loving hand, in these areas.

IMO, Christianity is the most fair worldview in existence, and this is one of the reasons that I think it is true, because all of us in our hearts see and honor fairness - because we are made in the image of a God who is entirely fair and just. God says He loves justice and fairness - and so do we.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Seriously, it isn't a religion.

It's a worldview comparable to Christianity.

Stalin's purges weren't atrocities committed in the name of atheism. He was killing any threat to his rule.

There is no name to commit something IN with atheism, yet I think that because of his atheism, he was able to commit the terrible atrocities he did, and justify them. Just as all atheists are not like Stalin, neither are all Christians like those who commit atrocities in the name of God. And I think the majority of those who call themselves Christian and have a pattern of doing awful things are NOT Christians. Anyone can CALL themselves anything, and if one wants to do evil, borrowing the name of God is convenient.

EDIT - actually, there IS a name that Stalin committed the atrocities in - the name of Stalin. The name that atheists commit their acts in is their own name ...

But I already said that I have to be careful about atheism because of my wife. She thinks religion IS the problem.

I agree with her that "religion" IS the problem IMO, Jesus (not "religion") is the answer.

And I honor you very much for respecting your wife.

And I will never cross Jesus off the list.

Yay!

I don't even know if evangelical is a religion that goes on the list in the first place. I hope that isn't insulting. It isn't meant to be. It's my own personal quest.

I'm glad you're on a quest. I think everyone should be.

[Rían]

I'm now CAUGHT UP on this thread!

I'm OUTTA here!

[inked]

Originally Posted by inked

Elfhelm,

Rian and her proclamation of the Good News is evangelical. Does that help you grasp the concept?


Nurv,

You can have Jesus in your life as Rian describes and proclaims. If you make a personal declaration of faith seriously, as is the intended meaning of Confirmation. Were you confirmed? Check out the service of Confirmation in your prayer book. There are specific questions in these regards:

1) Do you renounce Satan and all the forces of spiritual wickedness?

2) Do you turn to Jesus and accept Him as your Saviour?

3) Do you take Jesus as your Lord?

The Anglican view is that the whole is a process. It may have momentous decision moments (as in coming to this belief) but it may be gradual growth into this understanding and experience, and it may be both. It remains, always, a process of growth into understanding, apprehension of the meaning, and personal implementation of the reality. Even, or especially, those we recognize as great believers and achievers in the process, the Saints, all speak to this beginning and continuing. The important thing is to begin for all journeys start with the first step. You are not guaranteed ease or peace as the world understands it. You are guaranteed a Companion in the Way, a Comforter to guide, and a destination worthy of the effort - Life Eternal in the Love of the Trinity!

See, Anglicans are Catholic, Reformed, and Evangelical. We've got it all!

repost 'cause it fell to last on prior page and even I couldn't even find it!

PS Superb job Rian! *angels sing Hallelujah Chorus*

[Rían]

Thank you, inky, and I'm sure you'll join me in this:

from the Bible, the book of Revelation, selections from chpts 4, 5, 21 and 22

Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.

Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they exist, and were created.

Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.

To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.

And He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.

And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them.

And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

[Rían]

Thank you, everyone, for your wonderful company and great questions! I've really enjoyed getting to know you guys better, and I always enjoy good, vigorous, thought-provoking discussions with friends You guys have given me lots to think about, and lots of moments to remember with fondness, for you've shared from your hearts with me with honesty, candor and consideration. What a great gift! Thank you again

*gets off of very warm hot seat with a few creaks in the joints*

Brownie - go ahead and make your opening statement whenever you're ready

Until he makes his statement, I'll field any remaining minor questions, and anything that needs more time can be moved to the Theology thread, if that's OK with Nurvi

[Nurvingiel]

That was awesome Ri! You rock socks. I really enjoyed your posts!

Just one comment on inked's post that I missed:

Originally Posted by inked

Elfhelm,

Rian and her proclamation of the Good News is evangelical. Does that help you grasp the concept?


Nurv,

You can have Jesus in your life as Rian describes and proclaims. If you make a personal declaration of faith seriously, as is the intended meaning of Confirmation. Were you confirmed? Check out the service of Confirmation in your prayer book. There are specific questions in these regards:

1) Do you renounce Satan and all the forces of spiritual wickedness?

2) Do you turn to Jesus and accept Him as your Saviour?

3) Do you take Jesus as your Lord?

The Anglican view is that the whole is a process. It may have momentous decision moments (as in coming to this belief) but it may be gradual growth into this understanding and experience, and it may be both. It remains, always, a process of growth into understanding, apprehension of the meaning, and personal implementation of the reality. Even, or especially, those we recognize as great believers and achievers in the process, the Saints, all speak to this beginning and continuing. The important thing is to begin for all journeys start with the first step. You are not guaranteed ease or peace as the world understands it. You are guaranteed a Companion in the Way, a Comforter to guide, and a destination worthy of the effort - Life Eternal in the Love of the Trinity!

See, Anglicans are Catholic, Reformed, and Evangelical. We've got it all!

Anglicans are Catholic, Reformed, and Evangelical? Booya. Are you Anglican too inked? I am, though I've never been confirmed. Those are important questions... erm... obviously. 2 and 3, definitely yes! 1, also definitely yes - as long as something I believe is true and right isn't put on the list! Though most things are obvious. And that, my friends, is why I'm going to read the Bible. And when I say going to I mean going to later, at least after I get back from Sweden.

[brownjenkins]

thanks for the extensive answers RÃ*an... it actually seguays pretty well into my "why"... here's my "what" from earlier in the thread:

my beliefs in a nutshell ~

the universe is cyclical, has always been around and always will be... yet there is no intelligence behind it... though intelligence has developed within it... it is something humanity has a hard time grasping, but this may be because we are limited by our senses and our perception of linear time... there may very well be all sorts of things going on that we cannot observe directly... gravitational force being one good example

i'm pretty comfortable with the current scientific views on the earth and the evolution of life upon it... the details may be off here and there... but the general theories of life forms evolving over time... sometimes in small ways, other times with great leaps due to extensive environmental changes seems to work pretty well... all that said, if a better theory comes along, i'd be willing to give it a listen

on religion, i view the world's religions as i do philosophy... an attempt by humanity to understand the world around us... the big "why" question... as such, i have no problem taking various good bits and pieces from the religions around the world and discarding others... basically, i look at what has worked in the past... if certain beliefs have lead to a more peaceful and harmonious human existance, they are positive... other beliefs that tend to divide one group of humanity from another are more negative... i also put a lot of weight on how religious organizations carry out their teachings... almost every faith sounds peachy-keen on paper, but in practice they can get a bit nasty... more often than not, this stems from the need to "convert" people... which, no matter how well-intentioned, has caused many tragic conflicts throughout history... i prefer the religions that just do their own thing and let people find it on their own... i would put buddhism near the top because of this... that said, i am not a buddhist... i just think it's one of the more positive religious philosophies

on god, one can never know, but i'm pretty doubtful... some say that the complexity of our universe requires a creator... to that i say, the very lack of order and reason throughout a great part of our universe points away from there being any possibility of intelligent design behind it... put bluntly, it's just to darn sloppy to imagine some great mind behind it... that said, i won't discard something just because i can't see it... and it may very well be that there is an intelligent force behind it, but this force is not quite as all-knowing, all-powerful and wise as we'd like to believe... maybe we were created in god's image

i'll try to get the "why" up soon, but feel free to tear away at the above

[inked]

Well, Nurv,

I am Anglican (though how much longer I'll be Episcopalian is an open question).

Carefully consider the questions at Confirmation in light of Rian's comments and summary. This is what those questions are raising.

I was paraphrasing the Book of Common Prayer of ECUSA, so your version may be slightly different in Canada, but not that different. All books of Common Prayer in the Anglican Communion are descended from 1549 and Cranmer (some more rigorously than others). Also, your BOCP should have a section labelled Catechism or something similar about these same issues and others.

If you have questions, I'll be happy to give you my take on things Anglican.
You realize of course that there is the teensiest possibility that I could be anomalous, don't you?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

That was awesome Ri! You rock socks. I really enjoyed your posts!

Aw, shucks! Thanks!

2 and 3, definitely yes! ... And that, my friends, is why I'm going to read the Bible. And when I say going to I mean going to later, at least after I get back from Sweden.

OK, girlfriend, since you said yes on #3, then I will remind you that your loving Lord says to get into His Word! And for your convenience, here is an ON-LINE Bible! (NOW if you don't read the Bible, given your acceptance of #3, you gotta tell God why not! )

The Bible - your Lord's loving words to YOU!

And you can ALWAYS pray, even in Sweden

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

thanks for the extensive answers RÃ*an...

You're welcome

"extensive" - heehee! *soaks her fingers in ice water*

i'll try to get the "why" up soon, but feel free to tear away at the above

There's a very good chance I won't be back on the Moot for any length of time until Tuesday - so if you guys don't hear from me, just know that I'm immersed in Christmas play rehersals and performances, get-togethers with family, school field trips and parties, and the like.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Brownie, if there is no creator, then how do you explain anything, even the Big Bang theory? Something has to be at the beginning.

[Rían]

Brownie, did you see my answer to your question? It's post #825. I just wanted to be sure you saw it

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownie

the universe is cyclical...

What do you mean by "cyclical"? What might this look like, IYO?

has always been around and always will be...

What about heat death?

yet there is no intelligence behind it... though intelligence has developed within it...

What do you mean by "intelligence"?

it is something humanity has a hard time grasping, but this may be because we are limited by our senses and our perception of linear time...

How does our concepet of linear time make things hard to grasp? What things does it make hard to grasp?

all that said, if a better theory comes along, i'd be willing to give it a listen

Why? (and please reflect a little more deeply than just a first-thought-in-your-head answer)

on religion, i view the world's religions as i do philosophy... an attempt by humanity to understand the world around us...

Why do you think humanity wants to understand the world around us? (again, please reflect a bit - give your thoughts some room)

the big "why" question... as such, i have no problem taking various good bits and pieces from the religions around the world and discarding others...

Do you believe that there is one actual reality, even if no worldview that we are presently aware of describes it?

basically, i look at what has worked in the past... if certain beliefs have lead to a more peaceful and harmonious human existance, they are positive...

Why is it good to be peaceful and harmonious?

other beliefs that tend to divide one group of humanity from another are more negative...

Why?

i also put a lot of weight on how religious organizations carry out their teachings... almost every faith sounds peachy-keen on paper, but in practice they can get a bit nasty...

What personal bad experiences have you had? What second-hand bad experiences have you heard about?

more often than not, this stems from the need to "convert" people... which, no matter how well-intentioned, has caused many tragic conflicts throughout history...

I agree with this negative you've seen; are you aware of any positives in this area?

i prefer the religions that just do their own thing and let people find it on their own... i would put buddhism near the top because of this... that said, i am not a buddhist... i just think it's one of the more positive religious philosophies

Why are you NOT a Buddhist?

on god, one can never know, but i'm pretty doubtful... some say that the complexity of our universe requires a creator... to that i say, the very lack of order and reason throughout a great part of our universe points away from there being any possibility of intelligent design behind it... put bluntly, it's just to darn sloppy to imagine some great mind behind it... that said, i won't discard something just because i can't see it... and it may very well be that there is an intelligent force behind it, but this force is not quite as all-knowing, all-powerful and wise as we'd like to believe... maybe we were created in god's image

If YOU were God , and wanted to create sentient beings that you could love and relate to, and who would be blessed by loving and relating to YOU, how would YOU have done it?


Brownie - given your worldview, what would YOU say to a young girl who was abused by her father and left home and is now a prostitute to get money to survive? What would you have to say to her about fairness?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Brownie, did you see my answer to your question? It's post #825. I just wanted to be sure you saw it

yes, and it was very nice... good questions too... i will get to them soon (though maybe sunday... going down to parents tomorrow)

[inked]

INTERESTING report hot off The Sunday Times!

INTERVIEW/ article at http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=1785

Posted by dvirtue on 2004/12/12 9:52:00 (49 reads)

__________________


Sorry, says atheist-in-chief, I do believe in God after all

By Stuart Wavell and Will Iredale
The Sunday Times

LONDON (12/12/2004)--A LOST sheep has returned to the fold. One of the most renowned atheists of the past half century has changed his mind and decided that there is a God after all.

Antony Flew, 81, emeritus professor of philosophy at Reading University, whose arguments for atheism have influenced scholars around the world, has been converted to the view that some sort of deity created the universe.

Flew, the son of a Methodist minister, is keen to repent. “As people have certainly been influenced by me, I want to try and correct the enormous damage I may have done,� he said yesterday.

But he is unlikely to proclaim his faith from a pulpit. He is still not a Christian and dismisses the conventional forms of divinity as “the monstrous oriental despots of the religions of Christianity and Islam�. He also stands by his rejection of an afterlife.

Instead, he believes that new scientific discoveries have revealed the existence of an organising intelligence. Investigation of DNA, he said, “has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved�.

Darwin’s theory of evolution does not explain the origin and development of life to Flew’s satisfaction. “I have been persuaded that it is simply out of the question that the first living matter evolved out of dead matter and then developed into an extraordinarily complicated creature,� he said.

Flew finds the conventional explanation that life arose out of a complex chemical brew or primordial soup “improbable�. So he is emulating Socrates and “following the argument wherever it leads. The conclusion is — there must have been some intelligence�. His volte face is all the more remarkable given his vehement denial of internet rumours in 2001 that he had renounced his atheism. His response was entitled: “Sorry To Disappoint, but I’m Still an Atheist!�

He has always described himself as a “negative atheist�, asserting the impossibility of either verifying or disproving the existence of God, a position he explained in his 1950 paper Theology and Falsification, reprinted 40 times in many languages.

His revised views are likely to cause as big a commotion as the astronomer royal’s recent speculation that the universe could be no more than a computer simulation, with humans reduced to bits of software.

Sir Martin Rees, Royal Society professor of astronomy at Cambridge University, said in a Channel 4 television documentary that on current trends that computers would be able to simulate worlds as complicated as the one we inhabit — or think we do.

“This raises the philosophical question: could we ourselves be in such a simulation and could what we think is the universe be some sort of vault of heaven rather than the real thing?� he asked.

Flew became an atheist at 15 and went on to proclaim his non-credo while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele and Reading universities. The professor is now revising the introduction to one of his 23 books, God and Philosophy, incorporating his revised ideas.

“I am certain I shall surprise a lot of people,� he said.

Peter Atkins, an atheist and professor of chemistry at Oxford University, is not impressed by Flew’s reasoning. “It’s absurd to think that because something is improbable it’s impossible,� he said. As for evidence of divine design, he observed: “There are several faults in nature’s design. If I were God I would expect the current design to be sent back to me for improvement.�

END

___________________________

This article reprinted in entirety and the accompanying interview at the site noted (NOT conducted by the site, please note!) seemed most germane to the topic and are posted for interest while waiting BrownJenkins return.