Should evolution be taught in schools?

[HOBBIT]

Sorry guys, I was going to keep it a secret, but I cannot keep it from my loving children anymore. I am a 500 billion year old alien named Elohim aka God aka Jehova. I came over here in my spaceship a while back after my homeworld exploded and I created the world as you know it. And that, my friends, is the truth. Discuss.

[Giroth]

I ain't brainwashed...heheheheh,I am surrounded at home by people who don't quite believe as I do.
I never said evolution was a bunch of c***,I simply said I don't believe it.I believe your wrong,you believe I'm wrong.Your obviously not educated in the Bible and MY beliefs,so we are even,yes?

I am not ignorant either,thank you.

So,I'll settle this here;may we respect our opinions,shake on it,
and go about our business.You can discuss this evoultion thing now between you.No hard feelings

Have a nice day,


~Giroth

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by Giroth
I ain't brainwashed...heheheheh,I am surrounded at home by people who don't quite believe as I do.
I never said evolution was a bunch of c***,I simply said I don't believe it.I believe your wrong,you believe I'm wrong.Your obviously not educated in the Bible and MY beliefs,so we are even,yes?

I am not ignorant either,thank you.

So,I'll settle this here;may we respect our opinions,shake on it,
and go about our business.You can discuss this evoultion thing now between you.No hard feelings

Have a nice day,


~Giroth

i disagree. a lot of us ARE familiar with the bible - former christians and jews - and current ones that also believe in evolution. You, on the other hand, are not very familiar with evolution.

[Giroth]

.....alright.I can start again,but what is the point?Besides,I was just trying to make well.I don't feel like arguing anymore,so I want to leave it here.End it in a mature matter,is what I mean.Is it all good now?

~Giroth

[HOBBIT]

I'm serious though. I dare any of you to disprove what I just said. You can't. You can only say "i don't believe you."

And yes, being an all powerful being, do respect your beliefs.

[Giroth]

alright.I DON"T believe you
Is it forgotten?

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by Giroth
alright.I believe you
Is it forgotten?

ok, you believe that I am god? Without any proof?

[Ruinel]

*bows to the mighty Elohim* LOL! Oh, that is rich!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Giroth
alright.I believe you
Is it forgotten?

Why would you so easily say you believe what Hobbit just said - which no one can prove one way or another - and yet refuse to believe what science is discovering? Evolution is far more plausible than Hobbit being a 500 year old alien.

[Giroth]

LOL HOBBIT<you didn't say you were god
in your post I said 'I believed you" in.Besides,I just wanted things to end here........LOL I didn't really believe you........I just wanted you to.......drop it......

Did you yet?

Oh,and DON"T question MY belief.......heheheh

[Rían]

Y'know, someone mentioned "devolving" - well, I would say the manners on this thread are certainly "devolving" - would an admin or mod please speak up *coughHOBBITcough* with a timely reminder for people to stay polite and considerate?

[Rían]

BTW, I've said many times on this thread, out of consideration of the people that believe in evolution, that I believe that there are many sincere and intelligent scientists that think that the theory of evolution is the best answer to the question of how things got to where they are today. I really believe that, and I just as sincerely believe that they are wrong, but I've made a point to say that I believe they are intelligent and sincere (which I DO believe), many times, out of respect for the posters here. I've really made an effort to keep my language and manner respectful and considerate.

Are there any of you people out there, that believe that the theory of evolution is the best fit, who are willing to say the same about the fully qualified scientists that believe that creationism is the best fit? Or do you really and sincerely believe that all of the scientists that believe that creationism/CBID is the best fit just completely and with deceitful intentions throw out all their scientific training and logic?

[cassiopeia]

Rian (or anybody else), do you have any links that has scientists' reasons for believing in creationism? I would like to read some of thier views before I answer your question. I can't comprehend the scientific logic behind thier views, when so much evidence points to evolution.

BTW, Giroth, you said: "Think as you will...........but evolution is, in my opinion, foolish,incomplete,nonsense,
and crud." I'm dreadfully sorry for thinking that you thought evolution was a load of crap. Please accept my apologies.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Giroth, I think I've seen the light. Finally, you have provided me with concrete evidence that devolving really does happen! Thank you!

Obviously you don't have a sense of irony. Do I need to point out here that there's no such thing as devolving?

[Rían]

I knew it was a joke, and my "devolving" comment was NOT aimed at you in particular, Sheeana. It was a general comment after re-scanning thru the last several pages of the thread. I wanted to put in a bit of humor by using the "devolving" manners phrase, but I really think that we could step up the consideration level here and it would be better for everyone.

There's no evidence for devolving, huh? And it is NOT part of the th. of evolution, right? OK, that's fine, the scientists feel that it is NOT a logical inference, then.

There is also no evidence for macro evolution, is there? However, the scientists feel that that is a logical inference. That's fine, too, I"m sure they're very smart, but let's please just not go around saying inaccurate, overbroad things like "evolution is scientifically proved".

[Rían]

I'll dig up some links for you, cass. Thanks for considering my question

[Lizra]

The use of the word "Brainwashed" was brilliant IR! Thank you! For the first time (in all these religion threads) I now begin to understand why many otherwise intelligent people believe this stuff. (IMO) Brainwashed by family from day one, brainwashed by the church, and/or brainwashed by the strong desire to unload life's burdens and enjoy the "perks" (not worrying about things anymore..."It's Gods will", afterlife in total ectasy ...heaven, knowing you are special....and other goodies I'm sure! ) that religion has to offer. Whew! I get it!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Are there any of you people out there, that believe that the theory of evolution is the best fit, who are willing to say the same about the fully qualified scientists that believe that creationism is the best fit? Or do you really and sincerely believe that all of the scientists that believe that creationism/CBID is the best fit just completely and with deceitful intentions throw out all their scientific training and logic?

Like I said before - belief is not science - and unless a scientist can prove that their is a higher being - then it would be impossible to prove Intelligent Design or creationism. Scientists NEED to leave their religious beliefs at the lab door. When they do their study - god can NOT be part of the equation.

I can believe anything I want and no one can really prove I'm wrong - so what would make my "science" any more accurate than theirs? Like I said previously - I can say that life on earth was a failed 3rd grade alien science project - you can't prove that to be wrong or right. That could be "Intelligent Design" The only thing science can do is say how we have developed - based on discoveries and observations.

[Draken]

This one still going?

Look folks, it's pointless!

Religion is about nailing your colours to an accepted teaching and interpreting the world in that light. Any interpretation of that teaching that differs from yours is, let's be honest about this, wrong, in your eyes. Any explanation of what we see around us that differs from your interpretation of this teaching is also wrong.

Science is about explaining what we see around us in the light of the evidence we have. Theories can be proposed that fit that evidence, but as soon as evidence disproves the theory it must be amended or replaced. There is no unquestioned Original Text to refer back to in science: next year's Hubble constant might not be the same as this year's, and the next fossil find might dismantle some cherished dinosaur theory or another.

Religion is inward looking, needing no new evidence because all wisdom is ultimately derived from a historic source. Science is outward looking, unafraid of new data because it recognises no unquestionable received wisdom.

Time spent debating this is time wasted. Any evidence that disagrees with a religious view of the universe will be questioned, any evidence that further supports that evidence will be questioned in turn. So we can see that not only must evolution be thrown into doubt, so must anything that supports it - carbon dating, plate tectonics, rock formation, climatology, palaeontology, etc, etc. From the basic premise that evolution theory is entirely wrong because one intrepretation of one religious text says it is wrong, one must go on to unravel much of science's discoveries of the last century or so.

That some scientists subscribe to Creationism is irrelevant. I met an electrical engineer once who didn't understand much about his job. Does that mean that electrical engineers as a profession are flawed? No, it means there are good ones and bad ones, as is the nature of all professions. There have been bad scientists for as long as there has been science, that some now call themselves Creationists changes nothing.

More interesting to me is why this fear of data, of an explorative and inquisitive mindset, is so prevalent (almost exclusively in the developed world, as far as I know) in the USA - especially it seems in those rectangular shaped states. Maybe drawing borders with rulers from an early age inhibits the development of the mind? Someone should do a comparative study with a really crinkly-edged country like Norway!

Still, fun though it is watching a chunk of the current Super Duper Power sliding into an intellectual Dark Age, not my problem and I've better things to be doing.

Have fun everyone!

[Rían]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I agree there will always be something else to LEARN, but your beliefs don't require further learning - all you have to do is just stop and say "God did it" and be done with it. Whatever isn't understood is god. It has been that way since man has been on earth. It used to be believed that solar eclipses were caused by the gods anger too or that the reason a city was rocked by a volcano was because the gods were angry. I don't see much difference in the mythical being that modern Christianity or any other religion today believes in - than what the people in ancient civilisations believed in.

Wrong. When transitional forms were not found in the fossil record, was the basic premise behind the th. of ev. thrown out? No, some of the parts in the theory were adjusted. (and it doesn't matter that transitional forms are not being really looked for today - the important thing is that they WERE being looked for at one point, and when they weren't found, the basic premise behind the theory WAS NOT THROWN OUT!)

Same way with the creation model. The basic premise is that an intelligent being created the world and all that's in it. Given this, they expect to see certain things. If the things are NOT seen, then some of the premises in the theory can be changed, but the underlying premise is still considered to be valid. SAME MECHANISM FOR BOTH THEORIES.

That's good. But where is religion trying to find the truth? The key aspect of religion is to have belief and not to question. The main point of science it to question. Without questioning - people would still think you'd fall of the face of the earth or that the earth was the center of everything. Religion was FORCED to accept these things because they had no choice. Now they are coming to terms with evolution - but they still need to fit god in there or else it destroys the whole belief system. I'm sorry - I just don't believe in a mythical being that controls or created everything. There is a logical and scientific explanation of why we are here and where everything came from and I just want to search for the truth.

Honestly, where do you guys get this thing about the key aspect of religion being to not question? That's why I'm discussing so many questions on the "Offshoot" thread - because I've thought of questions and thought them through!!

I think where your problem comes from is when the church - INAPPROPRIATELY, IMO - tries to dictate scientific thought. I think they overstepped their bounds in this area in the past.

No - I just think that you are a religious person that has strong beliefs. I don't think you are really into searching for the TRUTH though - I think you just want the information that supports your established beliefs.

And your established belief is that evolution is the best fit. Mine is that creationism is the best fit. Your last sentence fits both of us. I'm all for gathering of scientific data. What I'm AGAINST is saying all-out that a certain INTERPRETATION is the only valid one. I have no problem with people saying that they believe a certain interpretation to be the BEST one; it's when they say it's PROVEN that it bugs me.

The CABLE station came afterward and is relatively brand new (with digital cable). Discover magazine has been around A LOT longer. Obviously you know nothing abotu Discover Magazine and just quickly glanced at the website and assumed it was a tv show.

I'm sorry, then, I was completely wrong here. (note that I don't mind admitting when I"m wrong - however, I'm ASSUMING that you're telling the truth, I'm not checking it myself ).

Talk about being condescending.

What was concescending about saying that I believed that I had more of a scientific background than you did? I'm sorry if you thought I was being condescending; I certainly was not intending to be condescending at all. That's the problem with talking about an emotionally charged subject by typing! (i.e., you can't see facial expressions, hear tone of voice, etc.)

I was reacting defensively to what I thought was an insult by you - suggesting that I read a magazine that I incorrectly thought was spawned off of a tv show (though often a very good one, IMO) to get some information. I wanted to point out that I have indeed had some scientific training, and my guess is I've had more than many people on the Moot (1 year of university level physics and chemistry, for PHYSICS MAJORS (as opposed to, say, courses like "Physics for Business Majors") . I switched to computers after 1 year, but took a few more chem classes, and lots of math and statistics (I was a Math minor). )